This is a story I find unfathomable. In 2006, Humaidan Al-Turki was found guilty of numerous crimes ranging from sexual assault to false imprisonment of a domestic worker in his employ while he was a student in Colorado. He was found guilty by a jury, not a Star Chamber. He appealed his case to the state Appeals Court and Supreme Court where the verdict was upheld.
Al-Turki, however, has something of a fan club. They asked Pres. George W. Bush to pardon him; Bush did not do so. The group now appeals to Pres. Barak Obama to pardon him. So far, there’s no word from the White House, but I doubt that a pardon will be forthcoming.
The question to ask is, ‘Why would Barak Obama want to pardon Al-Turki?’ There’s no indication, beyond his lawyers’ assertion, that there was anything untoward about his trial. Presidents don’t exercise their pardon power simply because of assertions. [That there are politics involved in pardons is true, but another matter.] The crimes for which Al-Turki was convicted are not petty crimes. They are crimes that particularly offend American sensibilities. Unfortunately, they are also crimes for which Saudis (and Saudi Arabia) has a reputation for both committing and ignoring, however fair that reputation might be.
The plea for a pardon is not coming from the Saudi government, but from several thousand individual Saudis. Those people may or may not understand American jurisprudence; they certainly don’t have their fingers on the pulse of Americans. At this time, sad to say, Islam and Muslims do not enjoy favorable views by a majority of Americans. There is simply no up-side to the President’s issuing a pardon.
Video plea to Obama to pardon Saudi launched
MUHAMMAD AL-SULAMI | ARAB NEWSJEDDAH: A number of Saudi youths launched a film on Tuesday appealing to US President Barack Obama to use his constitutional power of presidential pardon to set free a Saudi man jailed for sexual assault.
Humaidan Al-Turki is currently serving 28 years in a US prison.
The five-minute film is supported by top Saudi religious, media and sports figures and is the culmination of a campaign supporting Al-Turki on Twitter and Facebook, which has attracted more than 11,000 followers.
They also set up a special website calling on Obama to release Al-Turki.
Renowned Saudi Islamic scholar Sulaiman Al-Oudah introduces the film by appealing to the US president.
He is followed by Saudi Shiite scholar Hassan Al-Saffar, who says releasing Al-Turki would have a positive impact on Saudi people. Shoura Council member Najeeb Al-Zamil said the history of America is based on tolerance, love, justice and forgiveness and called for the release of the prisoner based on these noble values.
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September:01:2010 - 10:11
And this is done right after the Sri Lankan maid thing? What were they thinking?
Of course, the video was done earlier, but talk about timing….
September:01:2010 - 10:34
Yeah, timing’s a bit off. Even further off than the message which is simply incapable of being received.
September:01:2010 - 10:59
I don’t understand people who think sexually assaulting maids is OK and we’d have one bit of sympathy for someone who did such a crime. Those people live in their own worlds and need to stay there if they want to get away with such things. I guess this “poor” guy’s mistake was coming to Colorado thinking he could get away with such junk.
September:01:2010 - 11:04
There is a maid in Dawadmi now waiting to be executed because a baby she was bottle feeding choked to death when she was just 17 years old. She was little more than a child herself and entrusted with a newborn baby with no training at all. What kind of foolish, lazy parents are they? The baby choked, the maid didnt deliberately kill it. Is this justice?
Abusing maids is a part of life here and is accepted as normal by so many, if kept hidden away. How many maids in KSA get justice for the abuse they suffer at the hands of Saudis?
The latest case in the media now is receiving International attention, but why hasn’t it been announced here that the Saudi sponsor and his wife responsible for the torture have been arrested and questioned? She is only a maid that’s why and maids have no rights at all here.
Saudis get away with enslaving their workers here, but how can they think that they can get away with it outside of KSA? That is sheer arrogance, which unfortunately is shown by all levels of Saudi society. Of course there are exceptions, but Saudi attitudes need to change drastically.
Homaidan Al Turki was declared a bad person by people in the Muslim community where he lived in US. They said he was guilty.
Two other women accused him of sexual abuse.
He got what he deserved and let that be a lesson to others who disregard the laws of human rights and think they can get away with abusing vulnerable people.
September:01:2010 - 11:50
Have I missed something? Has there been anything to indicate, even slightly, that Al-Turki was wrongly accused? The way some people go about this case you’d think that Al-Turki was the victim of a lynch mob. I keep getting the feeling I may have missed a news article or two.
September:01:2010 - 12:10
Compared to the average rape sentence in the US and the average time served, I find the sentence harsh. The forcible confinement was knocked down to a misdemeanor, and monetary restitution was made of the back pay owed.
As despicable as this all is, I do think bias played into the conviction, and especially into the sentencing–unless he was sentenced on each incidence of raping the same woman, which would also be unusual.
I did read somewhere that there were questions about how fair the trial was, but I agree that he and his case are unlikely to received much sympathy in the US, and especially at this time.
I suspect that this group is only asking for extradition, if they are confident he would go free in Saudi.
September:01:2010 - 12:45
Agree with Chiara. 28 years seems a lot. Wish to know more details, maybe we miss somthing… Anyhow, I could understand extradition plee…
September:01:2010 - 12:50
“Al-Zamil said the history of America is based on tolerance, love, justice and forgiveness and called for the release of the prisoner based on these noble values.”
One must exercise judgment when applying mercy. Rabbis say, “Those who are merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful.” The appeal to release Turki does not contest his guilt, nor reveal any admission of wrongdoing or even regret from the convict. Apparently he’s holding on to his chosen identity as a slaver and rapist.
Another claim is that releasing this Turki “would have a positive impact on Saudi people.” Why? Will it be seen as the U.S. conceding that it is O.K. for Saudis to rape their housemaids?
September:01:2010 - 13:02
As for the sentencing: judges may take in account other deeds of the convict when setting the length of the sentence, whether charged for them or not. For example, Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion, not organizing crime and breaking Prohibition.
September:01:2010 - 13:10
But on another hand – in Saudi Arabia, I think he would be sentenced to death, as a married person, who commited rape.. Maybe it is better for him to stay where he is?
September:01:2010 - 13:44
I had commented on this article else where on this blog.
The best thing Saudi Government, should do is:
1. Ask US Government transfer him to Saudi Judiciary.
2. Saudi Government must agree to accept the validity of the evidence as presented in US courts.
3. Saudi Government must apply to fullest extent of Sharia Punishments to Al Turki (which means death by stoning )
The Saudi Government must do the above to restore its honor and confidence to the international community.
And the Saudi Government and Saudi’s must stop playing the devils advocate.
BTW I just came across this arab news article and was disgusted by it.
http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article121567.ece
Some Saudis and a so called Sheikh Salmaan Al Oudah are lobbying Obama to release the rapist and maid abuser Homaidan al Turki who thankfully has been incarcerated for 28 years in Colorado for his crimers.
Homaidan probably thought that he can get away with raping and abusing his maid in US just like in Saudi, and thankfully justice caught up with him there.
Now i am concerned that Obama being gullible at times as he is may buy into this Saudi Lobbying, so i suggest people go on this youtube page setup for lobbying and leave their comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOnoqBsrOjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ0_ckkCpBY
September:01:2010 - 13:49
@Chiara:
I don’t see it as harsh. It would have been better to have executed him. And i believe Rapists must be executed.
Also he had a host of charges, many counts of Visa Violations, Recruting illegal work, harboring illegals, Slavery, kidnapping, servitude, etc. He deserves 28 years actually he deserves much more.
September:01:2010 - 17:01
It dissapoints when there is such an effort for one who has engaged in “sexual assault to false imprisonment of a domestic worker in his employ”
For our society that proudly asserts that our law is built on the teachings of the Rasulullah, it is regrettable that such energy is devoted to such a one.
September:01:2010 - 18:24
Syed Hussain Aleem–I come from Canada where there is no death penalty, and I support that. I don’t see him in the same category as a serial rapist, for example. Financial crimes of that nature don’t usually get such a harsh sentence in the US for a first time offender who makes restitution. Most of the charges you cite were dropped or plea bargained down. Such are the ways of the US legal system.
The average rape sentence in the US is ~11 years; average time serve ~5. In Canada our worst offender Paul Bernardo (a totally different category of rapist), received 25 years, then was made a “Dangerous Offender” so will actually serve life (to the end of his days) without parole. He was not only a serial rapist but an extremely sadistic and perverted one, who was also charged with more than one murder of a victim. He should have got more originally in my opinion.
His accomplice, Karla Homolka, served as an informant for the police investigation, and got 12 years, which it was later learned was a completely inadequate sentence for her crimes (rape-murder, including of her own sister). She served all of it, got a BA, and was released into the community with no parole, no conditions, married and has had a child. Last I read she had moved to warmer climes, ie the Antilles.
These 2 had their story made into a Law and Order episode. The details of their crimes were so gruesome there was a media gag order on reporting them during the trial and for long afterward. Many were traumatized by the minimal detail that was allowed out.
Homaidan Al-Turki is not nearly in the same category.
So, yes, while I think our justice system was too lenient with these 2, I do think that in the context of the US justice system Al-Turki received a harsher penalty than others with similar charges have.
Thanks for the opportunity to elaborate.
September:01:2010 - 22:15
I need you guys just try to understand carefully what happened before you judge. Do you think all Saudis are Sympathetic with a person who has engaged in criminal things, no, we are not.
I’m sure one hundred percent no one form you has the whole story about his judgment. The charge were primly based on circumstantial evidence, neither DNA or material evidence were exhibited at trial.
September:01:2010 - 22:39
Actually, three courts, with far better access to facts, found him guilty. What evidence do you have that is both better than and contradictory to the what the jury and courts had to work with? Were you a witness? Or are you basing your comment on your preferred outcome?
Many cases in the US (and other courts) are tried solely on the basis of circumstantial evidence. Those cases may be harder for the prosecution to make, but when they are made, then juries tend to believe the prosecutors. Nor is DNA evidence of a crime–alleged to have been committed over a sustained period of time–necessary. In fact, the ‘CSI Effect’, the result of jurors watching a lot of TV, makes it even harder to get convictions.
I might give your argument more credit had only one jury tried Al-Turki and found him guilty. When three courts come to the same conclusion, then I find my willingness to ‘question authority’ rather diminished.
And no, I don’t believe all Saudis behave this way. I know, for a fact, that too many do.
September:02:2010 - 02:25
the history of America is based on tolerance, love, justice and forgiveness and called for the release of the prisoner based on these noble values.
Um, I don’t think the “values” call for forgiving assault and rape of a dependent female over a sustained period of time. Anyone thinking about the poor woman and her suffering? I guess not.
September:02:2010 - 08:39
The timing of the effort is unfortunate with a maid getting nailed in Saudi. In that case, I agree an eye for eye or nail for a nail.
Now I think its totally f ed up when Saudi rushes to the aid of a Saudi man who rapes an elderly man after he picks him up from a gay bar, beats him and steals his wallet. The rapist was extradited and no in this case Humaidan would not get stoned to death unless there were four eye witnesses. I am guessing there must have been some forensic evidence in the rape case for him to be convicted for so long. If there wasn’t then all of Saudi Arabia should rally to have this man returned back to Saudi to be with his children and family!!!!
Furthermore, i have heard he was targeted because he was a daiee. Lesson learned NEVER bring maids to America PERIOD! I have heard the woman who accused him of the rape recanted but was threatened that she would be stripped of her US Citizenship she had gotten and all the other Benefits!
September:02:2010 - 15:01
Chiara…
I remember the Paul Bernardo case when it first came out. What struck me actually was that they were Canadian. I jsut don’t think of those kinds of crimes coming out of Canada generally. I saw a show about a year ago that was done about he and Karla…evidently he was extremely sadistic with her as well and she played into it. I remember how depraved they were and I wondered how her mother could ever forgive her daughter Karla for playing a role in her sister’s very sadistic death. Too twisted to think about.
September:02:2010 - 15:08
“Now I think its totally f ed up when Saudi rushes to the aid of a Saudi man who rapes an elderly man after he picks him up from a gay bar, beats him and steals his wallet.”
With Saudi’s major issues with homosexuality why did he not get some sort of punishment if for nothing else than embarrassing Saudi where it really hurts them?
September:02:2010 - 15:12
John…if he was convicted by THREE courts then he has had three trials? What were the extenuating circumstances that required three trials?
September:04:2010 - 08:18
Oby my point here was that Saudi aided the Saudi man by having him extradited back to Saudi.
There is something wrong with Homaidan’s case.
September:04:2010 - 10:24
Sparky…
I had never heard of Homaiden before so I am not familiar with him other than what John wrote. Googling it only brings up the most recent request by Saudi students and I was unable to find the entire story…maybe not looking right. I have no idea what is wrong with his case but if he was convicted by three courts as John said I am guessing that entails three trials. Which makes me wonder why he needed three trials and had to be convicted three times. I’ll keep looking.
UPDATE: I copied and pasted the name from this post. It must be spelled wrong because an alternative spelling came up with lots of info. I’ll figure it out now that I have the right spelling. Thanks anyway Sparky!
September:04:2010 - 11:45
[...] community center near ground zero has resulted in a rise of anti-Muslim sentiments here. As John points out, “At this time, sad to say, Islam and Muslims do not enjoy favorable views by a majority of [...]
September:04:2010 - 15:26
I don’t know if somebody is dropping hints but how can someone be tried three times for the same crime? That would be double jeopardy!
Screwy if you ask me. Innocent people are put behind bars everyday to make political points. I mean only God knows who does what at the end of the day. I haven’t followed closely this case. It has been discussed here before. I hope if he is truly innocent then he will find a way to freedom otherwise I suppose he’ll have to rot in jail or work on converting everyone to ISLAM there LMFAO!
September:04:2010 - 16:32
‘Tried three times’ isn’t actually correct. He was tried once and appealed the verdict twice–Appeals Ct., State Supreme Ct.–thus 3. He lost all three times.
One can, however, be tried for the same time more than once: a) mistrial the first time around, b) hung jury, c) verdict overturned on appeal and a new trial ordered, or d) tried for both state and federal violations.
This last method is how many of the Southern racists of the 1960s actual ended up being convicted. State courts acquitted them when juries were comprised of equal racist peers. Federal courts approached the crimes from a different angle, the violation of civil rights, and were able to get convictions.
September:04:2010 - 20:44
“Innocent people are put behind bars everyday to make political points.”
Sparky, Al-Turki had the best defense money could buy. I took a look at the Wiki article and his defense counsel included Dan Recht and JOhn Richilano who are very well reputed in their fields. You can look them up on Martindale.
http://www.martindale.com/Daniel-N-Recht/294802-lawyer.htm
http://www.martindale.com/John-M-Richilano/297041-lawyer.htm
Innocent people do wind up behind bars but in 9/10 cases it is poor representation. That was not the case here. That Al-Turki was railroaded is difficult to support if you look at his defense team. I see plenty of people who deserve better legal assistance. Al-Turki does not look like one of them.
September:05:2010 - 10:06
John and olivetheoil thank you for the explanation. I’ll use it when conversating.
September:05:2010 - 15:15
The sentence is hard, but isn’t it often so, that if you want a more soft sentence, you have to show humility, and accept the wrongdoing.
Humaidan Al-Turki did neither.And some of things he said during trail showed, that he either didn’t understand USA, or just didn’t care. Not helpful.
September:05:2010 - 16:18
Actually the more I am reading on this the more I am concerned that the charges were false or largely false and politically motivated. He wouldn’t deal, and hence the harsh sentence. Unpleasant.
September:05:2010 - 23:40
He wouldn’t deal, and hence the harsh sentence. Unpleasant.
Chiara: Unpleasant as the plea bargain system may sound, it is an established part of the American criminal justice system and one for which strong public policy arguments can be made including that of reducing burden on the courts. Yes, the accused can get a lighter sentence for a negotiated plea deal prior to the trial but if he/she decides to roll the dice with the jury, it can pay off or can earn that person a longer sentence because the prosecutors are going to go for the max. It’s the way it is for everyone, not something that was specifically created for this one case. Mr. Al-Turki had highly competent legal counsel and chose to go to trial.
September:06:2010 - 05:12
My two cents: First, I think it’s ridiculous to have a “free Al-Turki” movement, especially when one of the activists said that *even if Turki is guilty of the crimes for which he was punished* he doesn’t deserve the long prison term. Which begs the question: What’s the punishment for rape in Saudi Arabia: ostensibly it’s death, right?
Second, this issue reflects a stark difference between Shariah and “western” law. In Saudi Arabia, a woman who claims she was raped can’t testify legitimately on her own claims even with physical evidence, which is hard to get in rape cases because the physical evidence disappears quickly after the crime. She has to have witnesses. But rape, by definition, is often a crime with no witnesses — a predator rapes a victim out of sight of others, usually.
The US weighs victim testimony in rape very heavily. In Saudi Arabia, not at all. (Without supporting evidence AND witnesses it’s virtually impossible to convict a rape charge.)
As I understand it, most of Al-Turki’s punishment is linked to the sexual assault. He also received years for false imprisonment, not renewing the maid’s legal status, and not paying the maid — all serious crimes in the US, but not so serious in Saudi Arabia.
The rape conviction was based solely on the maid’s testimony, and for that Al-Turki was slapped with the big sentence. This is something the Saudis can’t seem to wrap their heads around: that a rape victim can testify as her own witness to the crime. Physical evidence is not required.
Is it possible the maid made-up the rape charge? I think so. But right now the Saudis have a image and reputation problem: for every “false” conviction of rape there are many, many other rapes that go unpunished. To me, even if Al-Turki got himself wrapped up in the US criminal justice system and didn’t rape the maid, to me he’s just a symbol of the countless people who get wrapped up in the Saudi justice system and get falsely imprisoned or punished on false confessions.
Until the Saudis express true resolve to actually deal with their endemic problem of maid treatment, the world’s “jury” is going to weight victim testimony very heavily in the victim’s favor and people like Al-Turki — who shouldn’t have had a foreign maid in the first place because US law says only diplomats and relatives of diplomats can obtain residency visas for their domestic help when they go to live in the US — are going to be judged heavily.
So whether people think the maid made up her sexual assault claim or not, Al-Turki was also cavalry and unambiguously guilty of federal crimes related to what in the US is perceived as human trafficking, false imprisonment, and SLAVERY.
If the Saudis don’t like that, I’ll offer what they would say to me if I complained about not being able to buy beer or date in Saudi Arabia: if you don’t like it, don’t come. Al-Turki lived in Colorado for nine years as a “professional student” — he clearly loved living in the US, but didn’t respect US law pertaining to false imprisonment, not paying for work, not renewing visas, not giving the women even a day off. This ain’t Saudi, buddy and you can’t get away with stuff like that!
September:06:2010 - 09:08
OlivetheOil–short version because I accidentally poofed my long, beautiful one.
I was referring to the claim, substantiated by his lawyers, that Al-Turki was offered a plea bargain to drop the charges if he would become a spy for the FBI; and that the maid’s complaint was coerced after hours of interrogation, threats of criminal prosecution, deportation, and offers of US citizenship and help in settling in USA. This is similar to other cases eg, in the Khadr family; and to the way that testimony was gathered against Bill Clinton.
Other examples of the lengths that a government at war will go to: Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch.
So not totally farcical re: Al-Turki.
Oby above–thanks for picking up on the Paul Bernardo reference. I read some of it, and was traumatizing myself so stopped. Truly the definition of sadistic and perverse. Sadly, I had a patient who was raped at an Ivy League school in the US by a rapist with a similar profile, ie off the Bell Curve even for a rapist.
September:06:2010 - 09:37
anon I think your two cents are worth a lot and pretty much make sense!
Also I think I may agree with Chiara on this one.
September:06:2010 - 13:18
Sometimes, you have to accept what you don’t like to avoid something that’s worse. I feel that Al turki had too much faith in the American Judicial System. The prosecutors did “whatever” they could to make sure he stays behind bars. This should be a crime against humanty not just Al turki. Had he not been active in the spread of Islam there, he wouldn’t have been even questioned about his maid or how he treated her. Enslavement is too big a word to describe what was going on. She had a job to do and lived with them in the same house. What is really unfortunate is that religion has been made an issue here. The problem between the Islamists and the west is nothing more than a land grab and a dispute about rights. Religion has nothing to do with it whatsoever. The contestants just happened to follow different faiths. Maybe someday, the maid will recant her allegations and the truth will eventually prevail.
September:06:2010 - 13:32
I don’t see that Al-Turki had much choice in whether he trusted the legal system. He might have taken a plea agreement to lesser charges–had one been offered–but he had the same process as any American would. I think, too, that suspecting that his proselytizing made him a target is a little strange. People proselytize for any number of religions and Colorado is not adverse to them.
‘Enslavement’ is exactly the word for keeping an employee restricted to a single place, not paying agreed salaries, withholding her passport, and then abusing her.
September:06:2010 - 14:08
“Had he not been active in the spread of Islam there, he wouldn’t have been even questioned about his maid or how he treated her. Enslavement is too big a word to describe what was going on. She had a job to do and lived with them in the same house.”
Khalid, I don’t know how laborers are treated where you are from, but false imprisonment, not renewing a domestic-servant visa and not paying the maid for three year is considered a horrendous crime in the USA. I’m sorry you feel differently then stay the hell out of the US and go enjoy Malaysia or whatever “Look East” country you feel like going to. The US doesn’t need or want you.
As far as the allegation that his Dawa efforts was what got him in trouble: bollocks! Dawa is legal and protected in the USA. There are numerous such Dawa bookstores in the US. Don’t whine about American “bigotry” — the US is the most racially and religiously tolerant nation on earth. Piss off!
September:06:2010 - 14:41
@Khaled,
I agree with John and Anon.
I converted in the US. There is nothing wrong with proselytizing in the US.
And yes- treating an Indonesian maid that way IS a big deal. And it is a big LEGAL deal in the US. It should be everywhere. Legal and Moral big deal.
September:06:2010 - 14:55
Man I confused lost my post. the sentencee may be linked with the crime of maid enslavement etc and less tied to the actual rape. I said rapists of children have gotten of the hook in less time than I can count on one hand.
Hell, I could bust a cap in someone’s ass and get less time.
The U.S. is probably no doubt friendlier to its own citizens.
September:06:2010 - 16:02
Discussing this is taking me out of my vortex. Anyhoo U.S. doesn’t have extradition treaty with the S.A. Suggestion, Saudis start petitioning the Saudi embassy in Washington if you feel so strongly about this. “Some countries grant extradition without a treaty, but every such country requires an offer of reciprocity when extradition is accorded in the absence of a treaty.[2]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#Countries_with_diplomatic_relations_but_no_extradition_treaty
“Procedure for extradition from the United States
All extradition treaties currently in force require foreign requests for extradition to be submitted through diplomatic channels, usually from the country’s embassy in Washington to the Department of State.[7] Many treaties also require that requests for provisional arrest be submitted through diplomatic channels, although some permit provisional arrest requests to be sent directly to the Department of Justice.[8] The Department of State reviews foreign extradition demands to identify any potential foreign policy problems and to ensure that there is a treaty in force between the United States and the country making the request, that the crime or crimes are extraditable offenses, and that the supporting documents are properly certified in accordance with 18 U.S.C. § 3190.[9] If the request is in proper order, an attorney in the State Department’s Office of the Legal Adviser prepares a certificate attesting to the existence of the treaty, etc., and forwards it with the original request to the Justice Department’s Office of International Affairs. (“OIAS”) [10]
Once the OIA receives a foreign extradition request, it reviews the request for sufficiency and forwards appropriate ones to the United States Attorney’s Office for the judicial district in which the fugitive is located. [11] The U.S. Attorney’s office then obtains a warrant, and the fugitive is arrested and brought before the magistrate judge or the US district judge. [12] The government opposes bond in extradition cases.[13] Unless the fugitive waives his or her right to a hearing, the court will hold a hearing pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 3184to determine whether the fugitive is extraditable.[14] If the court finds the fugitive to be extraditable, it enters an order of extraditability and certifies the record to the Secretary of State, who decides whether to surrender the fugitive to the requesting government.[15] OIA notifies the foreign government and arranges for the transfer of the fugitive to the agents appointed by the requesting country to receive him or her. Although the order following the extradition hearing is not appealable (by either the fugitive or the government), the fugitive may petition for a writ of habeas corpus as soon as the order is issued.[16] The district court’s decision on the writ is subject to appeal, and the extradition may be stayed if the court so orders.[17″
Back in my vortex ommmmmmm
September:06:2010 - 16:05
The sentence he received was for a number of serious offences.
I have read of rape cases in the US by US citizens who have received much longer sentences for the rape alone.
Enslavement is a serious crime and how he and his wife treated the maid over a long period of time would be classed as enslavement in the US. We know that in KSA that it would be considered normal. They were not in KSA and had been in the US for 9 years or so, so should have been familiar with the laws on such serious matters. I have actually witnessed in KSA horrific treatment of maids including not paying their wages even when promised at the end of their contract, violence, threats, serial sexual abuse and overwork all of which causes any maid who is often completely isolated from everything that she knows to become completely and utterly powerless. Any family who has another person inside their home for 4-5 years must be aware of the detrimental affect of them never leaving the house. Why not take her out occasionally to allow her to see the world around her and to feel like a human being instead of a slave? They knew that she was illegal and wanted to keep her hidden for their own benefit, no matter what the price to her. People who are abused or kept prisoner for lengthy periods of time often develop bonds and feel loyalty towards their abuser or captors, this is human survival. I can understand that the maid found it difficult to initially speak of what was happening because she had been with this family for so long almost without any other human contact.
Also, there are comments supposedly written by members of his own Islamic community in the US who remarked that he was of bad character and that they believed that he was guilty of the sexual abuse charges against the maid. If you look you will find those comments. Of course it is hearsay, but someone actually posted that and they wrote their name.
September:06:2010 - 16:15
@anon; take it easy, I don’t take orders from you and you are not the president of the United states to speak on its behalf.
@John; Restricting her to the basement would defeat the purpuse of having a maid, wouldn’t it!? I don’t expect you to have a maid and put her in the masterbedrom while you sleep in the basement. If you think that Saudis don’t pay their laborers well, think again. Saudi Arabia has over 7M legal workers and that proves that they are satisfied or they wouldn’t have come. You were not in the basement, so you can’t say for sure and a rape-victim usually reports the second day. I have no way of knowing exactly what happened with the maid, but if she was offered anything in return for her accusations, everyboyd should be against that. Keeping her passport is important for security reasons and for safe-keeping eventhough she can contact her embassy and get a replacement.
September:06:2010 - 17:27
I think you’re too literally reading the ‘restricting her to the basement’. That’s obviously understood to mean ‘while not working elsewhere in the house’. Imprisonment, as a legal term, does not mean ‘holding in a cell’. It means ‘holding in a house’ or other building, if the person is not free to leave whenever she chooses. Similarly, whether or not the employer believes it ‘important for security reasons’ to keep her passport, it is illegal under US law and Al-Turki signed a representation, prior to obtaining a visa for the maid, that he understood this and would not do it.
Finally, you err in assuming that things are so dandy in the KSA that people just swarm to work there. The factor you’re neglecting is that people are paid more to work in the KSA than they are paid–if they can even find jobs–in their home countries. People to not cheerfully give up the numerous freedoms they enjoy everywhere but in Saudi Arabia. Money–or so at least they tell themselves–makes up for it to some extent. But it’s definitely not other desirable qualities of the country. An exception, which I freely note, is that some Muslims do think the hardships are worthwhile because they have easier access to Mecca and Medina.
September:06:2010 - 19:02
@John; I agree with you that people go to Saudi to work for the money mainly. And that they give up many of lifes’ “pleasures” in that pursuit. But that is the ultimate freedom one can have. To decide for themselves whether they want to accept the new rules or not. More importantly, if a poor unemployeed person wants to work and a Saudi family is willing to hire them, who are we to intervene!? In the U.S., if you calculate it well, it costs less for a maid to be living in the same house with the family she is working for. Everything is most likely paid for by the family which includes, clothing, medical care, and food. I find it hard to believe that he would rip her off and not pay her salary. For your information, the solid majority of Saudis treat their house workers like family members and if you find otherwise, it’s the exception and not the rule. I don’t know why the American embassy in Saudi issues visas for the house maids in the first place. As for leaving whenever you choose, most employers would fire you on the spot if you suddenly decide that you don’t want to work.
@anon; I reread your original post and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Drinking a beer and possibly contracting aids is not a bless. The Saudis won’t change their life styles just to please the likes of you.
September:06:2010 - 19:53
No question that living in-house makes sense, most of the time. Nor is it a problem if a salary is adjusted, reasonably, to take that into consideration. The benefits package is something that is surely negotiable.
But not paying salaries, as alleged and accepted as fact by the jury, is another matter. That is almost sufficient in itself to meet the definition of slavery.
I do know that most Saudis treat their domestic help reasonably well. I also know that some domestic help can be criminally abusive. But there are too many verifiable stories coming from the KSA about foreign workers getting shafted by their Saudi employers to make it unbelievable. It’s possible that Al-Turki had extra years added onto his sentence because of the bad behavior of other Saudis. That may not be fair, but it might have tainted the water. The solution to that, though, is for the badly behaving Saudis to stop behaving badly. It’s not just in the US that Saudis have a bad reputation, you know… just start asking other Arabs, even Gulf Arabs.
September:06:2010 - 20:36
@John; loool.. I wish all the bad behavior stops all over this planet, and that includes the Saudis. It’s not fair to stain the reputation of the whole society for the actions of some. And it’s important to take every bit of news with a healthy dose of salt because some people may have hidden agendas when they spread lies, rumors, or allegations. The recent story about the Sri Lankan maid could be a good example. As to the maids salaries, it’s normal for maids to ask the employer to keep their money until they are about to leave. Sometimes, she would ask for the money to be wired to her relatives while she is there and it is very normal for most of them to wait until their departure. This was a fatal mistake in his case since they have used it against him. As far as his trial and setence is concerned, I think that he did not get a fair trial and that he will be released soon. My hunch is that the authorities had no other choice than to do whatever they could to put him behind bars. Some of them seriously think that every Islamist is a potential “terrorist”.
September:06:2010 - 22:18
While I realize that my experience is not the universe of all experiences with domestic workers, but I have never, not once, had one of my domestic employees ask me to keep his or her wages. I can conceive of the possibility, but I’ve simply never seen it, in some 20+ countries with servants of some 30+ nationalities. They were all, incidentally, quite capable of handling their own transfers to family, perhaps because I never kept them locked in the house and they had access to banks, money lenders, telephones, and telegraphs.
I will not suggest holding your breath until Al-Turki is released. The world record is some 26 years, 11 months, 31 days, 24 hours, and 43 minutes short of what will be needed. He might qualify for a reduction in time served if he behaves himself and shows some sort of remorse, even if feigned. To date, he’s going to have to rely on good behavior alone.
September:07:2010 - 01:13
Are you kidding me!? Most of the maids that come to Saudi are so young, poor and don’t speak any Arabic. However, It’s very surprising how fast they learn to communicate in Arabic compared to some of the westerners I know who have spent so many years in Saudi and still can’t speak a few words in Arabic. Yet, the culture here is very different from say the west or even indonesia. This is not limited to maids, but even the majority of Saudi women have not been able to do those so called “men” tasks until recent years. I frankly envy them! And who is going to run to the bank every month to wire a $250 when the wire fees can be as much as $20!? Not all the banks welcome clients with that kind of income. At any rate, this is not as unusual as you may think. I am surprised that there are people who have already condemned the man and would be upset if he got out. As I said before, I think he gambled too much and the attitudes after 9-11 have dramaticlly changed. Yet, 28 years is a very harsh and unusual punishment to swallow for a PhD, married with 5 children person who was convicted over circumstantial evidence. Thus, a new enquiry is very likely and new information may turn up. If the Saudi government makes a formal request, I think president Obama will consider it. Politics makes and breaks the rules even in the United States.
September:07:2010 - 02:10
First I can attest to Saudi maids asking for their income in one lump sum at least every six months. Second, I had a maid who insisted on taking cash. So my husband made me have her sign every month that she received her salary. I took it a step further by honest to God having her fingerprinted next to her signature. No doubt there are many Saudis who either delay or don’t pay the salary but imagine having paid a maid in cash every month only to get her to the airport where she cries that she has never received her salary!!!
These people are dirt poor and will go to great lengths to get whatever they can. I always bestowed monetary gifts on them mainly to prevent them doing something bad to me and my family like pissing in our food or something.
September:07:2010 - 02:34
Let me add that my husband had told me that this has actually happened and the Saudi government has forced the sponsor to pay the paid (whether or not he actually did is questionable unless he had her sign or kept records). If someone paid 250 USD that would culminate to 6,000 USD over a two year period. Wish I could say that is petty cash to me!
September:07:2010 - 07:26
Do not Talk about something you do not know
watch the following clip and decide whether he is guilty or not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkl5LBi4zzw&feature=player_embedded
and i do not know why most of comment are very very negatives
if you do not live in saudi arabia then please shut your mouth off
September:07:2010 - 07:35
Khalid: I think you’re really reaching now. The hawala system has been running in the Gulf States for generations. It handles the small transfers without going through banks and does it for a small, fixed fee. Now, that system has come under pressure over the last 10 years because of the way it was abused to fund terrorism, but it still operates. Sending money by cable or wire is still very inexpensive.
On expats’ language skills, I mostly agree with you. They could be better, at every level.
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence and is perfectly valid in most courts in the world. In fact, it is the most common form of evidence used to convict as criminals tend to hide direct evidence. Forensic evidence, for example, is ‘circumstantial evidence’. One piece of circumstantial evidence does not lead to conviction; a collection of it most certainly can.
That Al-Turki has five children is immaterial to the law. It may or may not have bearing on sentencing. The children will surely suffer from being separated from their father for 28 years, but that’s something the father might have considered before breaking the law. It’s not the law that is punishing the children: it’s their father, through his actions.
September:07:2010 - 07:38
Actually, if you don’t live in the US and understand US law, opinions are to be downgraded. The strength of feeling is not a valid legal concept, only what the jury found to be fact and the court found to be violation of the law.
September:07:2010 - 10:05
For Abedo:
Read the article entitled ‘Saudis Need Attitude Adjustment’ in the Arab News of Oct. 22nd 2009 written by Najeeb Zamil a Shoura Council member and one of the prominent Saudis featured in the video pleading for a pardon for Al Turki.
We all know that every society has good and bad and that we cannot judge an entire society by those who bring shame to it.
The above article was written by a Saudi for Saudis with advice to improve the image of Saudi Arabia and its people, who are often not thought well of, for numerous reasons throughout the world.
Many of the comments are negative because of the many negative experiences suffered, witnessed or read about by those participating in this discussion.
September:07:2010 - 10:30
The strength of character is essential and is always considered when judges are asked to render sentences espcially in the U.S. A devout religious person with high education who is also a family man with serveral daughters cannot be equated with a junky or a bum. Circumstantial evidence is the weakest and usually show a weak case. I don’t think any reasonable jury could find him guilty based on the maids written statement unless he was portrayed as a danger to society. Unfortunately, the prosecuters can do just about anything to win their case. That includes threating the maid with jail for visa violations or offering her money/favors to twist the facts.
@John; The point is not the banking system, but rather whether he stole her salaries. Trust me, I am talking from knowledge and experience of both USA and KSA. The banking system in KSA now is more modenized than the Gulf states. It’s even common sense on the part of the maids. A lump sum is worth waiting for and taking the money every month is risky because it might get stolen by other maids, or wasted some how.
September:07:2010 - 12:12
“A devout religious person with high education who is also a family man with serveral daughters cannot be equated with a junky or a bum.”
Perhaps when it comes to posting bail there is a difference; the family man is less likely to disappear. Otherwise I doubt there is any difference.
September:07:2010 - 12:15
Khalid: It’s nonsense to state that circumstantial evidence is the weakest evidence. Most cases in the US are concluded based on circumstantial evidence. Check this Wikipedia piece. What is considered weakest is eye-witness testimony.
The claim was not that he stole her salary, but that he never paid her. There’s a difference. If he could offer up a receipt for the salary that he was ‘holding for her’, it would be strong evidence in his favor. Where’s the receipt?
A person’s character doesn’t enter into the guilt/innocence stage of a trial. It might count during the sentencing, but so do bad behavior, lack of remorse, refusal to accept responsibility, and lots of other things.
You seem to be forgetting that he was represented by very experienced, professional attorneys. He wasn’t there defending himself or with some bum lawyer he found in the phone book.
As I said earlier, I can conceive of a situation where a servant asked her employer to hold onto her salary for her. As Sparky noted, it’s mere prudence to have receipts, for both parties’ sake. That avoids the ‘he-said, she-said’ situation entirely. On the whole, I think that an unwise situation, though. Instead, help the employee open up a bank account, either in-country or in her own country.
September:07:2010 - 12:22
Agreed. Law is not supposed to care what your family name is, what your reputation is, only whether you broke a specific law. Law is also not concerned about the shame your activities bring upon your extended family. That’s for the criminal to evaluate before he commits a crime. If the price is high enough, perhaps he’ll think twice before going all criminal.
September:07:2010 - 12:58
@John: I have to agree that in some cases servants might ask for their wages to be paid in a lump sum over a period of months, but it’s egregious for the people here who have mentioned that to suggest this is what’s happening. Most domestics can’t afford not to remit money more than once every six months or whatever. I am appealed a the level of arrogance and unwillingness by a couple of posters here to even admit that this is a problem in Saudi Arabia. There are too many cases and what disgusts me the most is the unwillingness of the justice system to even punish Saudis who treat their domestic servants deplorably. A classic example was the Saudi woman who enslaved Anista Marie, that Sri Lankan woman: eight years of forced labor, no pay, no vacations, locked in a villa in Riyadh. The woman didn’t know where she was. If it hadn’t been for the noble gesture of the daughter of that Saudi hag to give Anista a phone to call for help, the woman would still be slave today. (And the bright side of this story is that the daughter was kind and moral enough to see this was wrong. She should have been commended publicly for going against her own mother in this case.) Anista was finally rescued, but the Saudi skank didn’t even have to pay her full eight years worth of salary!! She gave Anista a $2,000 piece of jewelry and the Saudis send the woman home. The Saudi skank lady wasn’t even detained for questioning. The hag wasn’t made to pay full back salary. Nothing. That Saudi b*tch should be rotting in jail right now. But, noooooo…
September:07:2010 - 13:05
@John; I don’t think employers are required by law or any other standard to get involved in their employees financial dealings or matters. As I said, it’s not that easy to open a bank account with such funds. Most banks won’t even bother with this and you can’t force them to. Not having a receipt doesn’t mean that you didn’t pay and if you look at this clip on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkl5LBi4zzw&feature=player_embedded
, you would know that the maid got more than she could ever dream of. He definitely made some minor mistakes that were blown up. I can understand why he kept her salary because it’s very common. And you cannot say that he had no intentions to pay before the facts. If trust is a crime, the whole world is full of criminals. I stand by my statement that you can convict the pope on circumstancial evidence if the atmosphere is ripe. The question becomes, is this justice!??
@Solomon2; If you think that repeating offenders are treated the same as an outstanding member of the community or that a bum is just as good/bad as a PhD holder, I am sorry to say that you need to have a psychological evaluation.
September:07:2010 - 13:17
“These people are dirt poor and will go to great lengths to get whatever they can. I always bestowed monetary gifts on them mainly to prevent them doing something bad to me and my family like pissing in our food or something”
You had a servant in long-term contract employment? Why would a servant, having freely accepted such terms, want to endanger her job by pissing in the food?
September:07:2010 - 13:19
I would just like to point out that being a PhD holder does not exclude a person from being any kind of criminal they choose to be. There are numerous criminals in all societies who are highly educated, from what most people would consider respectable families and even with religious backgrounds. Just the same as drug addiction or alcoholism, criminality affects people from all walks of life.
September:07:2010 - 14:19
@ Solomon2 first LOL
Next, I think it happens in the K.S.A. more than people think (pissing in the food.) Who would know if she is pissing in the food? I mean these people see others living a good life and then they get a load full of pennies and shit the question begs itself why not piss in the food.
I know that sounds crazy. O.k. what I am trying to say is I not only bestow monetary gifts so she won’t piss in the food but create a greater bond. Money is not the only thing. I smile at her, talk to her etc. I treat her as I would want to be treated. I scratch my head though because I’ve seen cruel skank Saudi b*tches like anon said treat their maids like garbage and the maids clean and cook better for them BUT who is to say they are not pissing in the food. Get my point!
September:07:2010 - 14:42
Sparky, you’re a little off track, but there is a very simple solution for your dilemma of the possibility of the maid urinating in your food. It is something that most of us do everyday, COOK AND PREPARE YOUR OWN FOOD!!!
Why is there such a huge dependence on maids doing everything in the house and even raising the children in KSA, even when there are usually numerous able bodied, unemployed adults living in each house?
Najeeb Zamil, Shoura Council member, hit the nail on the head when he wrote that the ATTITUDE OF SAUDIS NEEDS ADJUSTING.
September:07:2010 - 14:53
NO POPPY I”M NOT OFF TRACK. TURKI MAY HAVE TAKEN THE PISS OUT OF THIS MAID BUT SHE TOOK THE PISS BACK ON HIM.
First Poppy The Culinary inclinations of Saudis need adjusting. When that happens, you will see me preparing a meal in less than a half an hour with a smile on my face. The cooking and preparation takes too long.
For your info. this entire month of Ramadan I have been without a maid working full time. TThere are other priorities at the moment like house payment, car payment, private school tuition etc. I am dying right now with fever and a throat infection after making my Holy Umra. Today we had leftover bamia poured on top of teshreeba and peeled carrots. LOL. The strangest damn thing is that NOT having a maid has brought our entire family closer together. WEIRD.
I can agree a lot of shit needs adjusting but when things start looking up I’m going to get two maids so one is not overworked. Houses are freaking huge in Saudi! I was happy as a lark in the U.S.A. doing things the simple way but things just aren’t that simple here. I popped in my potpies into the microwave and put black pepper on them and enjoyed it so much.
September:07:2010 - 16:41
Most maids do not cook in Saudi homes. The mother usually takes care of that. That can be for the reasons mentioned in this thread(yuk). Maids normally do the cleaning and watch the young espcially when there is a working mom. The reasons why Saudis hire maids in the first place in my opinion are that the average family size is over 5 members, cost is minimal, and others do it, and to look wealthy. What is a mystery to me is what happened to the MAID in this case! Why wasn’t she prosecuted if they believe she broke the law!?? Usually, each person is responsible for obeying the law.
I see that the discussion has strayed away from the main topic which is Mr. Al turki! What grabbed my attention was the title for this thread. As if so many people don’t want him to have a fair trial or that they are happy that he and his family are going through this tragedy. This is terrible because I think that he was framed with bogus allegations just to shut him up and prevent a possible violent threat to the American people. Every reasonable human being should be for justice in this world and that only the genuinely guilty individuals are ostracized.
September:07:2010 - 21:01
Why wasn’t she prosecuted if they believe she broke the law!??
Which law did she break? That she was working for less than minimum wage? That she was had been bought into the country illegally? There is a strange doctrine in US law that the victim is not considered a party to the crime. It was Al-Turki’s responsiblity to pay her and as her sponsor (and as the person in custody of her passport) the one in charge of making sure her immigration papers were in order.
Also, he was not relying on his student stipend, was he! I remember my student stipend days. Ramen everyday, with mystery meat on weekends. Definitely not enough to afford domestic help.
I would just like to point out that being a PhD holder does not exclude a person from being any kind of criminal they choose to be.
Word! When I was in grad school at an Ivy League, the scandal of the decade was when a very reputed professor was arrested for having a hard-drive filled with child porn that had been discovered by his student. Oh, and he was using a classroom to film child porn starring an underprivileged teenage kid he was supposedly mentoring. Anyone who has spent enough time in academia knows that if anything, there is significantly less oversight in an academic community than there is in a corporate world. Which is fine because it leads to a lot more freedom in thought and expression but can backfire when it protects these special snowflakes. This man was married with two kids of his own. His poor family yes, him? May he rot in hell.
I can understand why he kept her salary because it’s very common.
I find this attitude the most bizzare. Just because it is acceptable in KSA does not mean it is acceptable or legal in US and an educated, sophisticated man should know that. I employ household help in India and (now) in USA as well. I pay in USA the prevalent wage–which is higher than minimum wage and in India I pay the wages customary there. If I tried to pay my helper in US the wages I do in India, she would ditch me in a second and I would be lost without her. Vice versa, I don’t pay US wages in India because then my neighbors complain that I am ruining the market wages and say nasty things to me.
September:07:2010 - 21:35
Khalid: He had a fair trial. Two levels of appeals court confirmed he had a fair trial. He did not have a trial that ended in the outcome preferred by his friends and those they’ve enlisted in his cause.
Do you truly believe you have a better grasp of the legalities than his professional attorneys? Are you a better judge of the materials presented during his trial than the jury? Do special interpretations of the law apply to him because he’s Saudi?
If anyone, any one, thinks that Al-Turki ended up in jail because he presented a threat to the American people, that his dawa caused him to be arrested, then they truly are clueless.
September:07:2010 - 21:54
@ oliveoil; What I find bizzare is that you would assume that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia are on two different planets! As if everything we do here is not done or illegal there! It is very common that house-helpers request that their salaries be kept with the family head until they leave. I don’t care how you do it in India. If my maid asked me to keep her salary for safe-keeping, I will do regardless of what you may think or say. That’s her business and mine and I am certain it ain’t illegal. Now, some people say that he didn’t pay her anything while you are saying that he was paying her below the minimum wage. For you information, he was not running a business, and she LIVED with them. I don’t think that housing is free for all in the U.S. and neither is food nor closing, health care..etc. Lastly, I don’t think she was smuggled in a box into the country or kidnapped. So, she is legally responsible for her actions.
I know that PhD holders are human just like the rest of us, but I would expect at least most of them to be more successful and more respectful of the law and the people they deal with. Not all the Saudi students live solely on the stipend. Why are you wasting our time and yours–being an Ivy League school graduate, arguing his case if you are an Indian and is so certain that he is guilty? Don’t you know that he is serving a harsh, unjust sentence already!??
September:07:2010 - 22:01
Dear Khalid:
Don’t you know that he is serving a harsh, unjust sentence already!??
He got a fair trial and had excellent legal representation. And was found guilty. I have no sympathy for those who exploit dependents in their control. If anything, those in control have a higher duty of care in my book.
I don’t think that housing is free for all in the U.S. and neither is food nor closing, health care..etc.
You have to pay federal minimum wage regardless of whether you are offering free room and board. You cannot deduct room rent out of legally mandated salary.
Why are you wasting our time and yours–being an Ivy League school graduate, arguing his case if you are an Indian and is so certain that he is guilty?
This sentence makes no sense.
Regards,
Oliveoil
September:07:2010 - 22:04
John! : Are you worried that he will be released!? Did he cause you any harm at all? Are you sure that he raped her!?? Why did she disappear!? Why was she threatened by the U.S. prosecuters of legal actions if she told the truth. Why did those scum bags coerce her?
I won’t comment on the question regarding his nationality because I sense a gratuitous sarcasm that I had not expected you to utter. This will probably be my last comment since most of the people here want to blame Mr. Al turki for the problems they encountered in Saudi Arabia.
September:07:2010 - 22:25
-> Oliveoil : You are Indian, aren’t you? Even if you have been naturelized, this is not your battle. Only God will decide who rots in hell, not you or any of those crocked prosecutors. Let me explain what I mean further. You are wasting your valuable time as an Ivy League graduate trying to convince me or others that he got a fair trial and that he should “rot in hell”. If it still doesn’t make sense, shake your head a little bit and it might sink in.
@John : The jury are not free to consider what has not been submited to them. The prosecutors with the help of the court can eliminate coroborating evidence. Very few appleas are successful because most judges will not overturn an outcome unless there is a very clear and strong error in technicalities. It’s not like a re-trial.
September:07:2010 - 22:29
Khalid…
the fact that you think a bum and a family man do not deserve the same sort of representation under the law indicates you inherently think one person is better than the other and deserves a different set of considerations when judging his crimes. In the USA, ideally, those issues are not taken into consideration when judging a crime. The court systems try to level the playing field as much as possible. It doesn’t matter if the bum is a rapist and the family man is a rapist. They are both rapists and therefore will both be judged as such. Just because one has a PhD or is a family man does not make his brand of rape more palatable.
September:07:2010 - 22:54
Oby..
I know that a drog-dealer or pimp is more honrable than a priest who molests children. But, normally a priest is more respected in society and they earned that respect. What I meant is that it’s unlikely for a person with a clean criminal record to suddenly commit a major crime. A successful family man is less likely to be a rapist. Is it possible!? Of course it is!! Is it likely!? I don’t think so. So one should be very careful to believe everything that the government says.
Are you sure that judges do not have the right to dismiss cases altegther based on the character of the accused!? Most judges are successful because they render wise and good judgements.
September:07:2010 - 23:31
Are you sure that judges do not have the right to dismiss cases altegther based on the character of the accused!?
Sure, just ignore the pesky thing called evidence.
Now you can berate me about this not being my battle.
September:08:2010 - 01:57
John Burgess: The plea for a pardon is not coming from the Saudi government, but from several thousand individual Saudis. Those people may or may not understand American jurisprudence; they certainly don’t have their fingers on the pulse of Americans….
September:08:2010 - 02:32
I would like to express my gratitude for this conversation and declare that I agree with John and Olivetheoil. You have won the debate. I went to the link where Turki is supposedly quoted and he doesn’t make any sense when he talks. He thinks he is a threat. Unfortunately I have heard many people in Saudi saying they believe he was targeted because he was a daiee. The man is unusual in his thoughts so I guess we could consider him clueless as well. In the U.S. you are entitled to a jury of your peers I do doubt they found anyone who would be equalled as a peer to him, that is why I think he should have been extradited. However, it sends a strong political message and thank God people do not have to make their own mistakes to learn a lesson. They can look to people like Turki and learn. Peace.
September:08:2010 - 04:12
For Khalid.
Khalid you said that most maids do not cook in Saudi homes. From my own experience most maids in KSA are involved in all kinds of food preparation in Saudi homes and certainly have access to the kitchen where food would be kept. There are some Saudi working women as we know, but most are not working as there are no jobs available for them. So I cannot understand why it is in this society that the young, uneducated women that you bring from poor countries and employ as maids are often expected to virtually raise the children. Most women are not working, so why do they allow young women that they have no respect or regard for to often virtually raise their children.
You demean these people and have no respect for them, yet you give them the very responsible job of taking care of your children, often many children. How is to be expected that Saudi children, who spend much of their time with the maid will absorb all the necessary social skills, language, manners etc.etc that children require? Outside of KSA people who are working and so unable to be there for the children would take great care to hire a fully trained, professional, educated nanny who would have all the required skills to raise a child and instill the children with good values etc.etc. Of course this kind of nanny does not come cheaply, but where our children are concerned the quality of the childcare is of the utmost importance.
So, once again we should look to the the wise words of Saudi Najeeb Zamil, Shoura Council member who said that ‘Saudis need an attitude adjustment.”
September:08:2010 - 08:10
There are several causes for which a judge can dismiss a case. The heretofore good character of the accused is not one of them. Good character can make it more difficult for a prosecutor to convince a jury that someone did something wrong, of course, but that it ultimately up to the jury. Good character can also serve as a mitigating factor when it comes to sentencing one convicted of a crime. Depending on the state, that up to either juries or judges.
September:08:2010 - 08:14
Yes, prosecutors can try to play down any aspect of a trial they like. And defense attorneys can try to play up any aspect they choose. Prosecutors cannot hide evidence–that puts them afoul of what’s called the ‘Brady rule’ in which they must share all evidence–inculpatory and exculpatory–with the defense. If they fail to do so, the trial can be negated and a new trial ordered. So far, Al-Turki’s attorneys have not raised a Brady claim.
You’re absolutely right that appeals courts do not conduct a re-run of the trial. But, if there is wrongdoing on the part of prosecutors or a flaw in the technicalities, as you say, they can order a re-trial. In that, Al-Turki and his legal team have failed twice.
September:08:2010 - 08:19
I don’t know Al-Turki and wouldn’t know him if he walked into my living room. I don’t care about him. I care about law. I care that Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabs have their images besmirched by misbehaving Saudis. I care that vulnerable domestic workers are too frequently abused in the KSA and elsewhere.
I actually enjoyed my years in Saudi Arabia, very much. I like Saudis on the whole. There are jerk Saudis, though, just as there are jerk Americans, Brits, Indians, Pakistanis, and Japanese. I want to see Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabs thrive and it pains me when some Saudis damage the reputation of the entire country. This is something a court determined that Al-Turki did through his unlawful behavior. This is something that Al-Turki and his current supporters continue to do in arguing that his behavior was somehow just a matter of cultural differences, not really a violation of US law.
September:08:2010 - 09:00
Al turki represents a large perctentage of Saudis in how he lived his life and very few with his aspirations and carrer ambitions. What he did in my opinion at least did not deserve what he got. Having a maid is not that bad and it’s just like having a full-time baby-sitter, Poppy! So there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. I don’t care what Najeeb Alzamel says, because It’s the right thing to do. And it’s benefitting millions of families in poor countries like Indonisia. Lately though, most Saudis have been hit with the problem of run-away maids. Some Bangladishi jerks smugle or help maids to run away and get into prostitution or independent work for twice the usual wage. This has caused many families to put restrictions on their maids which is plain common sense. It takes a length wait and costs above $1000 dollars to pay for administrative fees, and procurement of a maid. That is why their salaries is so low and most families can afford them. When they run away, they get $500 or more instead by other families who had their helper run away or urgently need help. I know for a fact about several families who travelled to Europe for example and had their maids run away and it’s not unexpected for some of them to put restrictions on their maid. Too much dependence on anything is terrible.
@Sparky : Let’s not get too sensitive about respect to maids. I think most people here treat them very well, both financially and moraly. And who says that they raise the children!? It’s just like long-term baby-sitting. I have yet to find a Saudi child who can speak Indonisian as well as the natives. Should Saudi women do more work at home!? Perhaps yes because that will be like going to the gym and it should be good for your health as well as your figure. Husbands sometimes prefer to hire a maid so that the wife can be more available and that she smells good and feels soft and good most of the time. Too much work in the kitchen can make the person’s hands feel like that of a lumberjack. Most men would prefer to have their wives pay more attention to them than to the kitchen or cleaning the house. If the cost is in the current range, I have no doubt that it’s well worth it.
September:08:2010 - 09:13
Apart from Turki, it is high time that Saudis consider an alternate venue for Education.
Come on you saudis must look at the recent Islamophobic outburst in NYC and Gainsville, you are all obviously not welcome and yet you decide to come and complain when you face the consequences.
And regarding Turki he did pay 250$ every month which is nothing more than a pocket change. And though some of the charges may be unsubstantiated. We all know what it was the same US Justice system that sent Rubin Carter to the gallows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_Carter.)
But nevertheless Turki did some sort of abuse like less pay, etc.
BTW after reading more on Turki i am going back on some of my statements.
September:08:2010 - 09:50
I’ve not nothing against having maids. I’ve needed them in most of my assignments to take care of large dwellings and help with a very heavy entertainment schedule. We did have housekeepers and nannies to help care for our son when he was small. About the only effect on him that I’ve seen is that he really likes very spicy foods, having been introduced to them at an early age.
The question, though, is how well those maids are treated.
I’ve no doubt, either, that there are abusive domestic servants, in the KSA and elsewhere. Bad behavior by domestics does not justify bad behavior by employers, however. Arguably, people in positions of authority–as employers, for example–have a higher duty toward good behavior as the consequences of their bad behavior are almost always more serious.
September:08:2010 - 10:10
The thing is it should be clear to Saudis that Turki should have abided by US law and it wasn’t cultural differences. Any one visiting KSA that broke the law especially after signing papers saying they wouldn’t and living there 9 years would not be given a “pass” due to cultural differences. They would expect to tow the line and live by the rules of the country and I dare say every Saudi would support that POV. Ie: a woman can’t run around without an Abaya. It isn’t USA law but once she is there she is required to do so because it is Saudi law.
Why should Turki get judged by different standards?
September:08:2010 - 12:16
John, my comments about Saudis having to have maids was aimed at Poppy’s quesitioning the need for maids in Saudi society.
Oby, Al Turki should not be treated differently, but he was in a negative sense. The 28 years he got were based on the accusations that he raped the maid 11 times! It’s hard for me to believe that a rape victim can withstand this treatment. She never reported that to the authorities and I am afraid she was coerced by the prosecutors just to make sure he gets a harsh sentence. Why would someone leave his country and take his wife and children with him to rape a maid!?!?
September:08:2010 - 13:37
When it comes to people’s behavior and sex, I don’t think you should automatically discount anything. Men who rape their daughters, weekly, while the mother is in the house… happens in every country. Those are daughters, not maids who don’t speak the language, who might not know how to report it to authorities, who aren’t let out of the house.
September:08:2010 - 14:56
For Khalid,
You said, “Having a maid is not that bad, it’s just like having a full time baby sitter.”
You just don’t get it do you?
I did not say that having a maid was bad! I have had maids myself when necessary! If a maid is needed for whatever reason and if she is not treated as a slave and gets the full salary as per her original contract then all well and good for all concerned.
I was just pointing out that too many households in KSA are too heavily dependent on their maids, expecting the maids to do literally EVERYTHING, whilst very little, if any, respect or regard is shown to her as a human being.
(There are always many exceptions as we all know)
I also pointed out that maids are often the main caregivers for newborn babies, toddlers, children of all ages as well as having to complete all of their other heavy load of household chores. When the majority of Saudi women are not working I find it rather strange that they would choose a maid, who they mostly regard as very inferior, to be the caregiver of their children, when they are usually doing absolutely nothing themselves.
Babies are learning from the moment of birth and need proper care, attention and stimulation right through their childhood.
THEN, you went on to say that “Husbands sometimes prefer to hire a maid so that the wife can be more available and so that she smells good and feels soft and good most of the time.” You also went onto say that too much work in the kitchen can give a person hands like a lumberjack.
Are you suggesting that women who do not have maids do not smell good, or feel soft and good most of the time and are also not so available (whatever that might mean)? And their hands might not be all they should be either!
A woman with a maid should certainly be more available to look after her own children if she hasn’t got a job and hasn’t got to do ALL of the household chores that are allocated to the maid.
I find those statements of yours regarding the reasons for having a maid rather Neanderthal!!!
September:08:2010 - 15:49
@Poppy: I was trying to explains to you the reasons why a household would have a maid. Don’t forget that most families in Saudi have an average of over 5 members. If you can afford it, why not!? It is important for a mother to raise her children herself, but she doesn’t have to do everything herself. Any way, if you want to have 9 kids and do everything yourself, it’s OK and God help you! People should have to right to live their live whatever way they wish as long as they don’t hurt others. The sideeffects can be controlled, trust me. It’s also considered a social privilege by the Gulf societies. Women mainly insist on having maids, not just men. So don’t think it’s only beneficial to the husbands. I don’t know what the last word means, but you I hope it’s not deragatory.
September:08:2010 - 15:59
Poppy is not saying it is bad to have a maid. Just that some Saudi’s rely far too heavily on them especially for child-rearing.
In my experience overly maid-reared Saudi children have few manners, little respect for anyone, including teachers, parents etc., often poor hygeine (expecially teeth), poor nutrition and an overinflated sense of entitlement. Add to that some of them speak Arabic with a Philipino accent.
If people can’t take care of (and some supervised maid help is fine) 9 kids- they shouldn’t be having so many. They are a responsiblity- not something you collect and take pride in just because of quantity. There is nothing to be proud of in 9 ill-raised children.
September:08:2010 - 22:05
Sandy, I agree with you totally.. but then again, it’s none of my business and it’s not against the law!
As a matter of fact, they could become like the Jackson 5 or 9. This is typically the Saudi psyche as I know it. If you notice, even the rulers of the country have way too many children. Anecdotally, kids that are not well behaved turn out to be much calmer and more successful when they grow up. Don’t forget that Saudi Arabia is considered to be a third-world country and that things have changed so rapidly in the past few decades which introduced some bad habits along with good ones.
September:08:2010 - 23:39
For people who need more information about the case of Mr Al Turki, wiki has a good account of his case as well as the refrences such as the following :
http://baheyeldin.com/writings/media/out-of-context-coverage-rape-and-slavery-are-basic-muslim-behaviors.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homaidan_Al-Turki
And for this who may disagree with me, i present this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_FOQ7-P30
September:09:2010 - 04:48
Khalid…Great song! Brought back memories. I am a Oh so 70′s chick at heart.
September:09:2010 - 05:48
They did not grow up to be calmer and more successful. They grew up to be inconsiderate drivers, for the most part unemployable and still with an incredible sense of entitlement.
With the possibly exception of the rape charge- (though that is all too likely) it seems clear Mr. Al Turki is guilty of the other charges regarding is maid. And these charges put him in violation of the law and human rights. Even if what he did was “normal” for Saudi- and certainly it is all too common, the whole system in Saudi is a massive human rights violation- it simply doesn’t fly in the US. People should keep their own passports, get regular time off, during which they are free to exit the house and do as they like. They get paid a minimum wage. They don’t work unlimited hours, spend off time in their room, get paid less that is legal and not be in posession of their passport. It’s pretty straightforward really.
September:09:2010 - 10:04
Sandy, You are right about the bad driving, but I don’t think it’s totally their fault. There was no real enforcement of the law. This has changed recently with SAHER. The U.S. would be much worse had it not been for the strict application of the law by the police. Just go back and review what transpired in Los Angelese during the Rodney King riots when the police chief announced that they were not going do anything. When the police stops arresting people, large chunk of the society turns into a mob and breaks every law you can think of. If you follow the news–Fox news for example, you would know that their is a big war going on right now between the drug cartel in Mexico and their government. Those criminals have broken laws of both countries and have caused the greatist damage you can imagine to the U.S. and the American people and yet the U.S. government is not doing a small percentage of what they did to prosecute and jail whom they choose. I have no doubt that the maid could and would have run away had she felt abused or threatened. People sometimes tend to think that they are helping and end up making the situation worse. When you accept certain rules, you don’t complain. This is the American way! Put up or shut up. As to the minimum-wage issue, I am sure that she would’ve paid much more had she rented her own place. Furthermore, I think she would have been in greater danger had she been fully integrated in the society. I know of American girls who have been abused far worse than what you can imagine. Just think for a second for a second what can happen to a young Indonesian girl living by herself in the U.S. The passport issue is no brainer. She can call her embassy and get a replacement and I myself prefer leaving at the receiption in hotels whenever I travel just to have a piece of mind. I don’t think you want to pay more than what the market decides is the reasonable price. Her salaries may be peanuts to you while it is a fortune for her or her family. I know for a fact that Saudis are very generous with people that work for them especially in-house. There is a strong bond between us and people that we let into our houses and it always prevents abuse by both parties. This is the norm.
September:09:2010 - 14:55
Your missing the point. It was illegal for him to take the passport and illegal for him to underpay. I know for a fact MANY Saudi’s are NOT generous with those in their houses. As you point out- people often do what they’re policed to do. They are not policed to treat people fairly so why would they? But in the US the law decides.
September:10:2010 - 23:31
Sandy, Are you sure that she asked for her passport and he refused? Are you even sure that she wanted to leave and was forced to stay? The other charges were misdemanors and the jail sentence would not exceed months if any. His future and his whole family were given a fatal blow. If she wasn’t raped as the prosecuters claim, this is hardly called justice.
September:11:2010 - 03:22
it is funny how you all talk about KSA as you know it , been to it, lived in it or even citizen in it. first of all, sexual harassment or abuse to any female not only maids is not tolerant by the Saudi nor Islamic law by any how. if any of such cases came into public, Saudi law will take the same procedure done by the American law!
the thing is that Turki al Humaidan and his family were fairly treating their housekeeper, who could have reported them if she was unhappy.
Turki al humaidan did not abuse his housekeeper neither sexually nor by any other way! that’s why, Saudis are asking to pardon him , or release him because he is not guilty. he is innocent.
and there is someone here in the board who mentioned a maid who chocked a baby when bottle-feeding him to death and is sentenced to execution. first of all, the made put mice-poison into the bottle and that was found in the blood tests and other tests in the hospital, which in reaction resulted in a kidney failure, and then a liver failure and the baby’ health gotten worse until he is dead 3 weeks later. drinking an over dose of milk would not result in such an effect and poisoning a 3 month old baby is not tolerant by any humanitarian law. !!!
September:11:2010 - 07:07
Those of us who live or have lived in Saudi Arabia know, as a fact, that too many Saudis abuse their domestic employees. The Saudi media knows it as well, because it reports on the abuse, in Arabic as well as English.
Saudi law, while seemingly set to punish this abuse, rarely does so. We also know this for a fact, as does the Saudi media. Why would there be efforts, headed by members of the royal family, to control this abuse if it were non-existent?
That you believe Al-Turki to be innocent of the charges is immaterial. A jury in a court of US law found him to be guilty. That verdict was challenged twice, by talented attorneys, and both appeals were rejected.
September:11:2010 - 09:14
For Maryam,
Maybe some of us who are participating in this discussion have wide experiences of Saudi Arabia and that is how we can make our valid judgments here.
I know from my own personal experiences of horrendous serial sexual and physical abuse committed by a Saudi male to a number of females who got away with everything he did because of his ‘WASTA.’
You said that Homaidan Al Turki and family were fairly treating their maid and that Homaidan did not abuse her in any way at all. You say that with the confidence of a person who actually was living right there in the Al Turki home. That cannot be surely, or you would have been called as a witness in court for Al Turki.
Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors!!!
And who are you to know better than all of the people who investigated this case at length?
You also went on to comment on the case of the young Sri Lankan maid who was sentenced to death in Dawadmi.
Now if you are going to spend the time in making comments at least try to get your information correct, as it is reported in the newspapers for all to read.
First, I find it very strange that Saudis do not value their babies, children more than to entrust them to very young, uneducated girls who Saudis mostly regard as inferior beings.
A baby is a delicate, precious gift from God and should be valued enough to be taken care of by it’s mother when she has nothing else to do with her time. As is the case of most Saudi women.
If by any chance she is one of the very few, lucky Saudi ladies who are working, then she should ensure that whoever is entrusted with her baby or children is a person well qualified in all aspects of child development and so would be able to cope should a baby choke whilst being bottle fed.
Who in their right mind would give their young baby to a young girl of 17 years old, straight from Sri Lanka, with no experience at all of taking care of a young baby?
Nobody that I know would do that!!!
The maid came to KSA to be a maid, to clean and do household chores.
On top of her household chores she was then expected to take care of a very young baby even though she had no experience at all with babies.
According to the news given to the court the baby died immediately of choking after being bottle fed by the maid.
There was nothing in the news about poison or blood test results or of the baby dying as a result of being poisoned.
A 17 year old has just left school. She had just left her mother. She had very little experience of life. She should not have been expected to know what to do in the case of a baby choking. Babies choke even when being fed by their mothers or trained nannies and nurses.
The difference is that an experienced person would know what to do to save the baby.
The negligence of the careless parents of this unfortunate baby resulted in its death and now they want revenge for something that could have been avoided if only they had valued their baby’s life more and used their brains a little.
There is too much dependence on maids to do everything in Saudi houses.
The maids do all the housework, washing, ironing, food preparation etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
Then they are often expected to take care of all the children in the house including very young babies.
Please tell me what the mothers, aunties, grandmothers are doing!!!
Saudi culture values ostentation very highly. The car must be the very best, the same with the clothes and everything else in the way of material possessions for all the family. All Show!!!
But, when it comes to childcare, Saudis are not so fussy or choosy, are they? Any maid will do, in fact the cheaper the better as far as they are concerned.
It is well known here that many young Saudi children speak a smattering of Indonesian, Filipino, Sri Lankan along with their minimal Arabic. Many Saudi children also have no social skills or manners and are often downright obnoxious, because the maid is so burdened with too many other things to give the necessary time to the children and babies.
It should be the duty of parents to ensure that their children grow with the right set of values, social skills and manners.
To ensure that they are getting everything that children require to allow them to emerge as civilised young people.
Maryam, I will ask you to read the article written by Saudi Najeeb Al Zamil Shoura Council member, who says that Saudis need an attitude adjustment. In fact I think it would be a good idea if this article was printed in Arabic and delivered to every household in KSA.
September:11:2010 - 20:46
Khalid, you’ve raised many questions. Many of these questions were either dealt with in court, or betray poor comprehension of the American justice system. Yet when corrected, you veer off into digressions and then repeat your questions a little later; it’s like typing responses to you was a waste of time. What impression are we supposed to get from your conduct?
September:12:2010 - 09:27
Maryam, Actually you are the one that sounds as if you don’t live in Saudi (I have for nearly 2 decades) and as though you’ve never dealt with the Saudi legal system or even read a local paper here.
September:13:2010 - 19:32
I see that this is not about humaidan and more about the bad experiences of people that have been to Saudi. Solomon2, do you have any doubts that the maid was coerced? Read the wiki article again and pay more attention. my early response was a response to previous comments by Sandy and not for you to evaluate or even read. I think I have a better comprehnsion than you can ever muster. If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it. You sound more like a sneaky prosecutor from Colorado who is bent on putting an innocent man in jail. One more thing, you don’t speak for the whole group, so stop using the “we”.
Poppy, and the rest of you who have been criticising the treatment of maids in Saudi and claim you speak with credibility, you don’t know much. Most of the westerners that I ever met in Saudi live in compounds and are isolated from the Saudis and their maids. The abuse if there is any is well publicied and is bound to happen between humans. I am sure it’s much less than what happens in some other parts of the world. Saudis are not perfect and neither are the people that come to work in Saudi.
September:13:2010 - 21:57
“Solomon2, do you have any doubts that the maid was coerced?”
I feel no compulsion to review the entire case myself from scratch, because I have faith in the U.S. justice system here. The standard of U.S. courts isn’t one of ANY doubt but of REASONABLE doubt. This Turki was judged guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that the process of reaching that conclusion was fair was reviewed twice.
“my early response was a response to previous comments by Sandy and not for you to evaluate or even read.”
Why not?
“If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it. ”
Nonsense. If I don’t like what I read, I question or criticize it. That way I either learn more or challenge the propagation of misrepresentations and falsehoods.
“You sound more like a sneaky prosecutor from Colorado who is bent on putting an innocent man in jail. ”
Career advice? Not relevant, is it?
‘One more thing, you don’t speak for the whole group, so stop using the “we”.’
In the specific context it was employed in – talking about you – and given my experience here, I think my use of “we” appropriate until contradicted by another long-time commenter of Crossroads Arabia.
Khalid, your digressions have been dealt with. I don’t think you have anything left. Will you continue to advocate Turki’s innocence on nebulous grounds or not? And if so, why should your opinion be respected?
September:13:2010 - 22:27
Sandy, you are not making any sense. You have been living in Saudi for almost 2 decades and yet find it horrible to be in Saudi. I’ll help you get out free of charge and also jail the bastard who is keeping your passport if he won’t give it to you. I can understand how people from different backgrounds can look at the same issue and get two opposite impressions. For example, male babies get their reproductive organ’s tip cut off. I can agree with both, but know for sure that it’s not done with malice. Saudi Arabia needs to start depending on Saudis just as much as I need to quit smoking. Is it going to happen soon? I don’t think so. As to the comentators who keep bashing Saudis here, stop this misinformation! I bet most of them can’t even read an arabic sentence and are biting the hands that has offered you a decent job when your own country did not.
Maryam, some people here cannot find Saudi on the map, but they know Islam and can’t stand it. Well, who cares what they think. There are 1.5 trillion muslims and they cannot all be wrong.
The webmaster should allow us to use Arabic in here!!!
September:13:2010 - 22:42
Khalid: No, it’s people’s experience with real Saudis that inform their views of Humaidan.
As for Wikipedia being a reliable source on this issue… you’re kidding, right? Anyone can go into Wikipedia and change article–deleting what they don’t like, adding what they do–with nary a fact to interfere. That’s why Wikipedia is useless for any issue that has two sides, both strongly felt, regardless of truth. I could go in there and make Al-Turki look like a dog raper and it’d be there for all to read, until someone else deleted it. But just because I don’t do things like that doesn’t mean that Al-Turki supporters don’t spin stories to meet their agendas.
Try some other media, like local newspapers. Or even better, court documents.
September:13:2010 - 22:45
1.5 trillion is about a thousand times too many. In fact, it’s about 3 times the world’s population. I’m sure that was just a typo, though.
September:14:2010 - 00:21
I like wiki and it’s not as open-for-abuse as you may think. Try to write something and you will know how wrong you are. It’s too bad you didn’t even look at the article because had you done so, you would have known that there are references to the sources you have defined as TRUE AND LEGIT.
Since you are good in math, can you tell me what the law of probability says of a daughter getting raped by her father in the U.S. and that in Saudi since you think you know both pretty well. Moreover, what is the “rape” stats for both?
September:14:2010 - 03:50
My personal situation in Saudi is good- but that doesn’t mean I close my eyes to what happens around me. My life isnt horrible- but much of what the Saudi system supports is.
The point of your posts was simply to discredit me, by suggesting I live in a compound (I do not) and that I think my life is horrible (it is not) and that you think you could jail my mahrem for holding my passport (you could not, and he’s not holding it anyway). That my own country has not offered me a decent job (it has). That perhaps I’m an Islamaphobe (I am a Muslim).
You have nothing substantive to show my views are in error.
September:14:2010 - 03:53
For Khalid,
For your information I do not live on a compound. My children are Saudi, so that might give some credibility to my previous post and unravel the mystery of how I know about the treatment of maids in Saudi houses. I’ve actually witnessed all kinds of abuse and speak out about it because it is inhumane and would be considered inhumane whether it was committed by a Saudi, an American, a Icelander, a Swede, a Spaniard, an Indian or any other nationality. Of course, there are all kinds of crimes committed the whole world through, but the abuse of maids and other poor workers seems to be endemic in KSA and it seems to be carried out with impunity, by so many, as the newspapers and the human rights organisations report frequently.
September:14:2010 - 10:33
Solomon2, if I direct a reply to Sandy, it’s for Sandy alone. if you read it, you are breaking the law of the Internet to say the least. I strongly believe that you are neither American nor Saudi and this unfortunately, applies to many of the active folks in here. So, you don’t really know much about the U.S. legal system, and much less how prisoners get raped over dare.. and definitely how Saudis feel about this case now. Based on the circumstantial evidence, half of Saudi fathers can be sentenced to prison by a run of the mill American Jury! Maids have been coming and working in Saudi for so many years and so many of them have NOT been abused, neither sexually nor physically. I wish I could say the same about the U.S. This is not to say that the trial was based on the maid. And neither was President Clinton and Monica. This case was exactly about “TERRORISM”. He was tried because he got involved in religious activities that “can” be attributed to AlGa3edah as if AlGa3edah had a religious philopsophy. If you don’t already get it, you won’t ever get it no matter how sophisticated you think you are. You don’t care if he was guilty or not. You just want to argue because he has a different religion than yours. I dare you to confess your religion or race for what it’s worth!
Poppy, this is about Humaidan!! It’s not about the treatment of mexican workers in Arizona or Texas!?? Why don’t you put your comments in the right place? Some sites would beat the crap out of you if you asked the wrong question. Why don’t you respect the the rules? isn’t it like the law!?? This site is ONLY for American and Saudis to bring about an understaning of the differences in cultures, religion, etc. to help make people understand more about each other. No disrespect is intended, but this is the law of the land folks.
I even hear some Americans talk about Shari3ah law with very little knowledge. If they know that Shari3ah gives the right of execution or sparing the life of the murderer to the victim’s family alone, I am sure they will love it!
I am thinking about reporting this site to the authorities in Saudi Arabia so that they can pay more attention to the ingrates in here. I know for a fact that with IP control they can grab your ass faster than you can finish typing your comments! So, at least the law of retribution to incitement can be finally applied in Saudi Araiba.
Sandy, you don’t sound as a muslim to me and I don’t mean any disrespect. Sandy is not even a muslim name. You sound more like a filipina. I wish you had lived in the U.S. to really know what you are talking about. Now everyone knows that using cockaine is illegal and punishable by law in the United States, yet even the current president had once used and even mentioned it in a book. I know, it’s hard to find one person who has never done it, but don’t give me this shit about the legal system over dare..
September:14:2010 - 10:53
Khalid: I think you should ask for a refund on your Internet Law education. Comments on a blog are open to all readers, even if they’re directed toward another commenter specifically. Other readers are free to comment in reply, to ignore, to applaud any comment on this blog–and every other one of which I’m aware. You note that I’m replying to your comment to Solomon2. That’s my right, not as the owner of this blog, but as one who reads comments on this blog.
Any ordinary Saudi cannot bring his domestic worker to the US. There are definitely restrictions. There is also an acknowledgment, signed by both the employer and the employee, that US law and customs regarding domestic workers will be followed. The acknowledgment specifically spells out issues such as who hold the passport, minimum wages, free time, access to telecommunications, and the ability of the employee to quit. So yes, if a typical Saudi employer of a maid tried to behave in the US in the same way he does in the KSA, he would be in violation of the law and could very well end up in jail.
This doesn’t mean that the US law is unjust. It means that a Saudi living/working in the US has to obey US law just as closely as an American working in the KSA has to follow KSA law. This really isn’t a difficult concept, but a lot of Al-Turki supporters seem to believe that Saudi law is effective in the US. It is not, any more than US law is effective in Saudi Arabia.
Finally, I really would prefer that you not attempt to spell out the rules of posting on Crossroads Arabia. Your rules are definitely not my rules, nor are they the rules of any other site I visit. The Internet is not cookie time at pre-school, where everyone is just full of hugs and laughter. If a commenter makes an ass of him/herself, other commenters will certainly point it out.
PS: Please feel free to ‘report’ this site to Saudi authorities. Saudi authorities, you might be shocked to learn, approve of the site, even if they don’t approve of every single post. In fact, the Saudi government invites me to visit Saudi Arabia from time to time.
September:14:2010 - 12:03
Khalid,
I feel exasperated by your ignorant comments. Yes, I did say that and I meant it!!!
After this message I will not comment on anything else that you say because most of what you say make little sense and you are often downright disrespectful.
All of my posts have commented on what has been said previously regarding this topic.
I have no idea why you mentioned Mexican workers in Arizona or Texas, because I made no mention of them in any of my posts.
You were really off track there, weren’t you?
My comments have all been on track.
You said no disrespect intended and then you are very disrespectful.
Are you a mature person that you resort to threats of informing the authorities of a valid debate between other adults regarding a topic in the news at this time? Why would you assume that the authorities would be even remotely interested in what has been written regarding this topic. Most people were just voicing their personal opinion on things that can be read in the news any day, anywhere.
You want everyone to agree with you and if they don’t , which they mostly don’t, then you resort to childish tantrums.
Strangely, you seem to think that you can determine what Sandy’s religion and nationality are simply by reading a couple of written comments she wrote. What does a Muslim sound like? Does a Muslim sound like you? I suppose that if she had agreed with everything you said then you would recognise her as sounding like a Muslim.
Also, how can you determine Sandy’s nationality as Filipino, by reading a couple of posts written in her very good English. Even is she is Filipino, there are many Muslim Filipinos, as you should know.
ENOUGH KHALED!
September:14:2010 - 12:20
So far my ass hasn’t been snatched up yet. I mean at least in Saudi hahahahahahahah
September:14:2010 - 12:49
This thread has far too much potential ass snatching for my taste. toota loose.
Khalid, i understand you are upset about Turki but Saudis seemed to be tied up with gays at the moment. Like John said maybe he will be set loose earlier based on good behavior and remorse whether feigned or truthful. Got it. If he wasn’t guilty or whatever, this is a test and he should be patient. Isn’t that what Islam teaches?
September:14:2010 - 13:04
LOL. I sound FIlipina? How does that sound? I don’t sound Muslim? Because I disagree with you?
FYI- there is nothing in the world wrong with being Filipina. So what’s wrong with that?
Oh- you get your wish- I’ve spent more time in the US than in Saudi Arabia!
September:14:2010 - 13:20
@John, I know it’s open for all to read and is good for anonymity, but it’s rude to butt in. For example, if I ask you a question, I don’t expect someone else to ask me why. Some manners never hurt. And those who don’t should complain.
You seem to be strongly connected to this site and I sense a lot of imparitallity from you which could be for a good reason.
What I’ve been trying to explain to folks here is that when a poor young maid in a foreign land is threatened with prosecution unless she testifies against her boss, she will most likely accept any offer they would give her even if her testimony is fradulent. I have no doubt that this is a practice used by most American prosecuters when they need to slam-dunk a case. If you don’t believe me, read about the trial of Al Capon and most mafia leaders. This peice of info is even in this thread.
I didn’t create any rules, they are the first thing I looked at when I opened the page. It’s common courtesy for everyone to follow some guidelines.
The American embassy issued the visa for here and I don’t understand what you ordinary since he is a regular Saudi with an ordinary passport, not diplomatic or special.
I understand that he didn’t follow the law letterally, but he sure didn’t expect that he would be framed with rape or he could’ve waited till he gets back to Saudi to “rape” her. The other charges were misdemaneros and I think you know the difference between felony and misdemeaner.
I know also that polygamy is practiced in Saudi and in the United States. Mormons do it for a fact. Yet, the government does not prosecute them. What kind of justice system are we talking about here? It’s even impractical to outlaw something that the majority of the people just because someone decided it was bad and they want to make it illegal. I know about slavery, so please don’t tell me. I even heared about a grandfather that was questioned by the police because they found swim-suit photos of his granddoughter in his wallet. I’ve said it again and will repeat it one more time. Al Turki was framed.
The topic is about a specific person and some people just keep draging the conversation to maid affairs as if those maids from Indonesia. Sri Lanka, or the Philipines don’t have aggrements with the Saudi Government to control this business deal. Although I have never seen an abuse myself, I can’t deny it. Does it happen? Of course! Is it prevalent as some Saudi Heaters describe it? No. Are those people responsible legally or at least morally for not reporting it? In my book at least, YES!
I know also that polygamy is practiced in Saudi and in the United States. Moromons do it for a fact. Yet, the government does not prosecute them. What kind of justice system are we talking about here? It’s even impractical to outlaw something that the majority of the people just because someone decided it was bad and they want to make it illegal. I know about slavery, so please don’t tell me. I even heared about a grandfather that was questioned by the police because they found swim-suit photos of his granddoughter in his wallet. I’ve said it again and will repeat it one more time. Al Turki was framed.
Now, rest assured that I do not need permission form anybody to report an abuse and incitement to the authorities. Who knows, they might be keeping an eye on it already.
It’s privately registered which is an indication that even the owner would like to remain anonymouse. He might try, but he wont succeed. I won’t do it because I am aginst censorship and I’ve seen many more useful sites get blocked in Saudi.
p.s. I didn’t pay anything, so I can’t ask for a refund. A supreme court judge once said about pornogrophy, I can’t define it but I know it when I see it.
This can apply to so many things we face everyday.
September:14:2010 - 14:16
@Sandy, I said the name Sandy is not a muslim name. You probably know that this is one of things that converts do. I sensed a strong resentment in your writings towards Saudis and that is what I’ve always found in the wannabe americans.
I didn’t hear her voice, I was talking about the tune of her writing. If you are not an American or a Saudi, you are tresspasing! Read more about this site!
@Poppy, I wish you would read what I write twice if you want to understand what I want to say. Don’t start typeing until you get it. If you don’t get it, no need to comment unless you want to get it. Got it?
I mentioned Mexican workers because you keep bringing up the maids treatment as if you had been appointed to the maids labor union!! and you have the audacity to tell other Saudi ladies what to do and how to live their lives and how to raise their children! you really got the nerves. and this is not a threat you idiot! this is a warning. You keep trying to look as a law-respecting person when you are not, so cut the crap. If you have been employed by a company and you start bad-mouthing them, they would fire you before you stopped typing. You probably don’t know more than a few maids that also work at your husband’s close relatives and you make it sound as if all Saudis behave the same way your relatives behave. I wish I could tell them about you and let them deal with you. Not only that, but you keep spreading rumors, false accusations, and slandor and expect me to say nothing! I can’t believe that you are married! You are so nasty. One of things that you should have been told by your poor husband is that you never go to someone’s home and then bad mouth them in public! If you really want to fix things, you need to tell them directly what you think or report it to the police.
September:14:2010 - 14:26
Just some sidenotes
The wiki article makes clear that the maid was allowed to stay in the US and papers were already being filled out- based on the trafficing issue- BEFORE she ever said anything about sexual abuse/assault.
Also- and I may be wrong in my understanding of this- Federal charges were dropped, and the case was prosecuted by the State of Colorado. Which would mean the appeal to President Obama is wasted. It is the Governor of Colorado who can pardon Hamaidan.
The blog owner isn’t anonymous and I’m glad your not for censorship- because I earlier got the impression you were threatening us.
September:14:2010 - 15:37
“I strongly believe that -”
Khalid, you do not dispute that your credibility is in doubt. You reinforce this by citing things that can have no bearing on the Turki case, including attacking my identity and ignorance. You assert, without even a shred of evidence, that Turki was convicted because of his religion, without realize that you are unjustly smearing all Muslims by doing so.
“Solomon2, if I direct a reply to Sandy, it’s for Sandy alone. if you read it, you are breaking the law -”
“- if I ask you a question, I don’t expect someone else to ask me why. Some manners never hurt.”
This, I’ve learned from history, is the thinking of kings, princes, and dictators who believe in rule-by-law rather than rule-of-law, and thus don’t expect to be interrupted or contradicted. Us Americans learned to give such people the finger over two hundred years ago. I think that John, being a diplomat, was simply being gentle with you.
“…when a poor young maid in a foreign land is threatened with prosecution unless she testifies against her boss, she will most likely accept any offer they would give her even if her testimony is fradulent.”
I can see how, in general, that would be a concern. However, in this case it seems beyond a reasonable doubt that it happened that way, or else Turki’s very good defense team would surely have discovered it and convinced the courts of such.
September:14:2010 - 15:47
To Khalid,
I’m going to follow your rules for posting on this site. I have never posted here before. I’ve read about Turki’s case and watched the video. While I personally have not seen the actual evidence against him based on what I do know I would have voted him guilty (I guess we will have to agree to disagree).
I am an American in Saudi; however, I have been held here against my will for 242 days without any resources by my US educated Saudi sponsor who has a child with an American passport (his Saudi wife gave birth in the US).
You offered help to Sandy and I’d like to ask you to help me (free of charge as you told Sandy). If you could have ALL the injustices I’ve suffered from redressed I’d be grateful. If you could have my Saudi sponsor jailed I’d be grateful. If you could provide some food so I don’t starve to death I’d be grateful. If you could provide a way for me to have clean clothes I’d be grateful. If you could provide toothpaste and some other hygiene products I’d be grateful. If you could get me the hell out of Saudi I’d be MORE than grateful!!!
I have been to all the relevant Saudi government agencies; they did nothing. I have been to Saudi’s human rights organizations and the Saudi human rights lawyer colluded with my Saudi sponsor saying that if I did not agree to give up ALL my legal and human rights they would declare me illegal (even though I’m not) have me arrested, jailed, deported and guaranteed I would receive none of my rights and more punishment.
Since you seem to be connected in Saudi any help you could provide me would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
September:14:2010 - 16:30
Um… Khalid- you are once again in error. I do not have to be an American or a Saudi to comment on this site. I don’t know why you think you are the one making the rules here.
I know you meant the tone of my writing made me sound Filipena. What’s wrong with being Filipena? I imagine there are MANY Filipenas who have a VERY good idea about treatment of maids in Saudi homes.
This is a serious question- what’s wrong with being Filipena?
And just to clarify. I have nothing against Saudi’s. Nothing. Some of the finest people I know are Saudi. I do have a problem with the SYSTEM. The SYSTEM is incorrect. It doesn’t police (you are the one that said policing is necessary for good behavior) good behavior towards maids (and many other things but this thread is about domestic help). It allows all kinds of abuse to take place with little recourse for the workers. So I am against the SYSTEM.
September:14:2010 - 17:10
Sandy, it’s not your country and that makes you an outsider. Every country has the power to have their own rules and that applies to SA and the U.S. If you don’t like the rules, just simply leave. I am certain that the governments of Indonisia,the Philipines, and Sri Lanka have made employment aggrements with the governement of Saudi Arabia that govern the maids contracts. It’s better to give employment than to give hand outs. I am sure that many non-Saudis would be reading what you write and it’s full of misinformation. Thus I have to dispute those claims so that others don’t assume that they are correct. Why must people hear just your side of the story??
I don’t think the Saudis have asked for your opinion about their system, so keep it to yourself and try to improve the system of your country if you can.
I don’t think it’s your duty to save us from ourselves. If you don’t like the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I know that a large majority of Saudis will say the same. At least you get the Saudi point of view and so does many readers of this page.
Solomon, I know that your background does not allow you to be as objective as you need to be. So, I won’t reply to your pathetic critique.
September:14:2010 - 17:28
Lola, I have to say that you sound so sarcastic at best. Those are not my rules, those are defined in the About section of this site. To comment about Saudi Arabia with “knowledge” from an “American” perspective, not Indian, filipino, or any other. I am sure the author of the document could’ve dropped “American” had he wanted to.
Now, I don’t know much about your case, but there seems to be a countract between you and him and I have to hear his side of the story too. You can easily call your EMBASSY and they should gladly help you. If they don’t leave me a contact tool so that I can help you.
When I offer something free to a person, it doesn’t mean free for all or any. Yet, with your plea albeit sarcastic, I will consider it first.
September:14:2010 - 17:36
Specifically what claims have I made that need disputing? That many maids are abused in Saudi Arabia? You can read that in your local newspaper.
Saudi’s don’t need to ask for me to give my opinion. But many of them do. And I’m sorry- I want for my brother (and especially for my sisters) what I want for myself and have a duty to speak out the truth and to help when and where I can whether or not I’m asked.
Why must they hear just my side of the story? Tell your side. I never tried to stop you. You are the one that keeps trying to disqualify me from writing on a blog that isn’t yours.
And what you said about Poppy being nasty was just rude. I’m sure you think her husband should teach her plenty and make her properly subservient- but apparently he’s not that type and good for him.
I’m still waiting to hear what’s wrong with being a Filipena. You mentioned as though it somehow discredits me. Why do you think only Americans and Saudi’s can post here?
September:14:2010 - 17:40
Khalid,
I’m not being sarcastic. There is a contract which the company violated much of. I did go to the embassy but since it’s a civil matter there’s not much they can do; hence why I’ve probably only been threatened with arrest. If the company actually has me arrested then it moves into the realm of criminal and the embassy can be more involved.
Since I have no money for food I hardly have money to pay for help that the Saudi authorities are mandated to perform.
Even though I have much evidence to prove my case you seem so quick to discount it. Perhaps instead I’d be better off making a video to appeal to the American public instead.
September:14:2010 - 17:44
From the “about” page:
“This blog’s purpose is to comment, knowledgeably, about Saudi Arabia, from an American perspective.”
I believe this means that the person writing the blog- choosing the articles and making the commentary is telling us the purpose of his blog. He is commenting from and American perspective because that is what he is.
Other than that anyone is free to join the discussion as guests. But we as guests do not determine the purpose of the blog.
If it means what YOU seem to think it means- that a Filipena cannot comment, then neither can you as a Saudi because it says AMERICAN perspective.
September:14:2010 - 17:45
Khalid: We (that is me and most of the commenters) do understand what you’re saying. The narrative of Al-Turki being done dirt by US authorities and his maid, for some reason, is quite clear. We don’t agree, based on a) our familiarity with US law, b) our familiarity with the way domestic workers are often (not always) abused in the KSA, c) that no substantive arguments are made in support of Al-Turki, just ‘It ain’t fair!’ arguments.
Please check again about the US gov’t prosecuting Mormons for polygamy. It is against the law, even for Mormons. In fact, before Utah became a state, it had to make polygamy illegal. There are radical offshoots of the LDS that still practice polygamy, that still get put into jail.
I am the owner of this site. I freely acknowledge that and the Saudi government knows it.
September:14:2010 - 18:04
I didn’t discount it, yet find it bizzare that you would have an Internet access and are unable to feed yourself. It’s not Saudi Arabian to discredit anything before knowing the facts by both sides. You can hire a lawyer and he maybe able to get you out of your mess. Lawyers have to eat too, you know
Sandy, you might be right. I have no business in defending my country against hate-mongers who are ganging-up on me and my country any more. I’ve done more than my share and I should delete it from my favorites. Before I leave, I want to say that you do not represent America as I know it. The only moderate voice I’ve noticed is that of Sparky and some of John’s. You only represent the special interest group that wants to turn a land grab and a horrible occupation into a religious war. You do that just to save your own skins and sacrafice more innocent Americnas. You will never succeed.
September:14:2010 - 18:18
Khalid, most of what you just said to me doesn’t make sense. Of course you should defend your country- no one said you shouldn’t. I merely pointed out by the “rules” you tried to push on me- because you think I am a Filipena (still waiting to know what’s wrong with that) also applied to you as a non American.
“You only represent the special interest group that wants to turn a land grab and a horrible occupation into a religious war. You will never succeed.”
I don’t even know what you’re saying with that.
I’m guessing your leaving because you can’t get everyone to do what you want. Or accept your views as correct. You wanted to instruct us and be viewed as the knowledgeble one, and when we didn’t fall in line- you tried to discredit us -rather than trying having a genuine discussion. You think no one here has anything to offer except yourself and those that agree with you.
September:14:2010 - 18:19
Khalid,
My situation is surreal; if I wasn’t living it I wouldn’t believe it.
Lawyers cost money which I don’t have.
The ‘mess’ as you call it isn’t my doing, but my sponsor’s; I’m just the one suffering from it.
As to the internet access–it was provided to me since my sponsor had my cell service disconnected even though the phone is my personal property brought from the US and the recharge cards I paid for.
In other words even though I’m not a maid from a third world country I have had to suffer needless abuse at the hands of Saudis and the Saudi government that does not abide by Saudi law, the international agreements it’s a signatory to or human rights the government claims to uphold.
September:14:2010 - 21:26
Khalid: This site is not one where hate-mongers hang out. I don’t permit them to hang about. I do permit criticism and expect criticism to be based on something other than feelings or a sense of ‘the way things should be’. If you read the blog, you see that the criticism of Saudi Arabia, if sharp at times, is not hate-mongering. It’s intended to point out where Saudi behavior does not live up to the norms that Saudi Arabia says it follows. I don’t pick on every inconsistency in government–no one has a life long enough to do that for any government. You may note, too, that I criticize the US government. I criticize Americans.
I like to think that because of my experience in the Islamic world and in Saudi Arabia, I can act as a sort of interpreter of Saudi Arabia to Americans. I offer criticisms that many Saudis feel to be accurate, though many don’t. I certainly do not dislike Saudis or Saudi Arabia. I do find their behavior not up to their own standards at times, but I also note it when Saudis do good things, brave things, honorable things, even if there are those who would rather ignore them.
September:15:2010 - 03:54
I would just like to make this comment to refute Khalid’s opinion of me as a person who is just out to knock KSA! That is not true!
I am the first person to point out the things that I think are wrong with my own country or any country and I do so when I feel it necessary. I also point out the positive points of wherever including KSA. We have been discussing maid abuse, which happens too frequently to deny, there is nothing positive that I could say about that.
I cannot abide injustice! But the injustice that is perpetrated on those amongst us who are vulnerable that is blatant and carried out with impunity needs to be spoken of and not just pushed under the carpet. Mostly those people have no voice here, so others who feel their pain have to speak on their behalf. If I see injustice I have to speak of it in the hope that eventually justice will be served. Justice for Homaidan Al Turki has been given!
September:15:2010 - 04:12
Lola I will help you if I can. I bet I know where you work as well. My email address is talentedseeker@yahoo.com.
September:15:2010 - 04:27
Lola I would suggest appealing to the sAUDI PEOPLE. lET’S do it over some ice cream at applebee’s. evil chuckles
I can’t believe the U.S. embassy wouldn’t help you when you told them you are hungry. That is totally Fuckl ed up.
September:15:2010 - 13:34
“Solomon, I know that your background does not allow you to be as objective as you need to be. So, I won’t reply to your pathetic critique.”
THOSE WHO THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING ANNOY THOSE OF US WHO DO
I saw this on the T-shirt of a shopper at the supermarket yesterday. Why not buy one for yourself, I’m sure you’re in need of it.
September:16:2010 - 08:14
Khalid in case crossroads is still in your favorites and you read this blog, I have met with Lola and her story checks out.
It seems some Saudis have problems following their own laws (perhaps disagree with them???) esp. when bringing overseas workers e.g. visas etc. It is very unfortunate.
September:16:2010 - 09:31
Sparky,
Very decent of you. I hope things can be resolved even reasonably fairly.
September:16:2010 - 19:26
Sparky, you rock!
September:17:2010 - 00:33
Khalid:
I am Saudi. And I agree with these “foreigners”. Our sponsorship system is a terrible affront to human decency. There is a good reason why there are so many maid abuse stories. The system allows for it to happen. The system we have in place is no better than indentured servitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude) which is only a step above slavery.
So stop using the “you’re not Saudi, you can’t comment” nonsense.
September:17:2010 - 20:43
sparky…
Please keep us posted on Lola’s situation. If there is anything we can do stateside please let us know.
September:17:2010 - 21:37
Sparky–I add my kudos to those above!
Saudi Jawa #140–Nicely put.
September:18:2010 - 14:14
thanks guys. Lola Rocks really. I liked her a lot. She is a true blood funny ass American. If you are listening Lola you ROCK
Sometimes I think the US Embassy is like doing a freakin experiment or sth. when they don’t help ppl. Anyhoo, I am going to try to see what I can do to get the Saudis to help.
September:18:2010 - 16:18
I definitely don’t know the details of this story, but have to point out that sometimes, there’s not much the Embassy can do. It can’t, for example, send a group of thugs out to shakedown the person illicitly holding an American’s passport. It can contact the authorities and tell them that the Embassy is concerned about it. The Embassy saves it highest level contacts for those cases of greatest concern, usually something involving children and abuse, or people in jail.
That doesn’t really cheer people who are stuck in less critical messes, of course, but there are limits on what the Embassy can practically do.
September:18:2010 - 16:54
John, your statements are true enough; hence when seeking Saudi authorities to follow Saudi law and they in turn say: “Your own government doesn’t care about you, why should we do anything? You’re a nobody.” Or when contacting the OIG office within the State Department and are told “If you don’t have a diplomatic passport then you’ll be treated the same as a third country national by us and them!” Bitter pills to swallow!!!
It’s bad enough when the State Department doesn’t help their own citizens in distress especially through no fault of their own, but when they violate the civil rights of US citizens and then further compound it by violating US laws when those same citizens file FOIA requests that State ignores, only produces a few of the documents in question or redacts them to the point of being virtually useless (what are they hiding?). So it comes as no surprise that more lawsuits are being filed to fight these injustices and human rights abuses and to hold State accountable.
I personally find it amazing that some State employees apparently have no idea what the US Constitution says or means and furthermore aren’t familiar with 7 FAM either.
September:18:2010 - 20:52
Lola: Clearly, I’ve no knowledge of the particulars of your case nor what Consular may or may not have done. I do know that when I was last in Riyadh, the Consular Section was very much on top of citizen affairs and took great care to protect American citizens as best they could. That protection was not perfect, of course. Even with the best intentions, things sometimes get screwed up and mistakes are made.
Lacking other knowledge, I’m assuming your problem falls under 7 FAM 671 and likely Paragraphs b. and c. That section does not, indeed, offer much in the way of help. It instructs Consular Officers to direct the American Citizen to local attorneys. It also authorizes the Consular Section to contact the appropriate offices of local government to bring the issue to their attention. That’s not necessarily a lot of help, either, as it relies on the good will of those offices to actually do their jobs. There’s not a lot of leverage available, beside making some local bureaucrat’s live uncomfortable, perhaps enough to do something.
You can, of course, request an appointment with the Ambassador to seek his personal assistance. Ambassadorial attention can sometimes move things in ways that a Consular Officer’s cannot. I’d try the Ambassador as well as the Commercial Officer–s/he may also have some useful leverage.
September:19:2010 - 00:25
Is it within my constitional right to say the current US Ambassador to the US in KSA is a stupid Military Man who can’t relate to Saudis nor common Americans. He will be useful to drop F-Bombs on PPL!
September:19:2010 - 07:01
Perfectly within your constitutional rights. I don’t know the man, never met him in fact, so I’ve no idea how accurate that assessment is. He has, however, worked with Saudis before, although in a military capacity.
September:19:2010 - 15:46
Well he should be on Eskan not in the Embassy. I don’t what kind of joke of a budget cut that translates to…
Honestly, don’t know much about him either accept what you posted of his transcript here on crossroads a whiles back, and I wasn’t impressed. I don’t like his face and think he needs to stay in his own domain…primarily on plane dropping F-bombs!
No further comment allowed!
September:19:2010 - 21:05
“…but when they violate the civil rights of US citizens and then further compound it by violating US laws when those same citizens file FOIA requests that State ignores, only produces a few of the documents in question or redacts them to the point of being virtually useless -”
Lola, I’m not really familiar with these laws, but the State Dept. sort of has immunity here. It is a specific exception to the federal tort claims law, that the U.S. gov’t has no liability for citizens’ claims arising in a foreign country. Which, on the practical level, seems to mean that any U.S. citizen who gets into trouble abroad has no right to demand anything of State Dept. employees – anything you get out of them is at their discretion.
I have read, in one such case in another country, of a U.S. citizen whose British friend brought the American’s problem to the attention of the British embassy, which (allegedly) was far more helpful to the American than the U.S. embassy was.
There is, however, another solution I suggest to people when the U.S. government bureaucracy behaves in an absurd fashion: write to your congressman and senator, citing lots of details, including the names of U.S. government employees whom you think failed to assist you as best they could.
September:19:2010 - 21:52
That can work, if there’s anything that the Consular section can actually do. That is, if they’re just being lazy or obstructionist, that can light a fire under them. But if it’s a matter of Saudi law, then all a congressional interest letter does is annoy
a lot of peopleeveryone to no good result. I’ve had my share of calls from congressmen who were unable to understand that one needs an exit visa from Saudi Arabia and that the Embassy cannot just gin one up on the spot. That’s something the local employer must get for the employee.September:19:2010 - 22:21
At the very least it should remedy the problem Lola reports of Saudi officials telling her, “Your own government doesn’t care about you, why should we do anything? You’re a nobody.”
September:19:2010 - 23:31
one needs an exit visa from Saudi Arabia and that the Embassy cannot just gin one up on the spot. That’s something the local employer must get for the employee.
I did not realize that even to leave, you need the permission of your employer. That is kind of scary.
September:20:2010 - 07:57
People really do have to know what they’re getting into before they get into it.
September:21:2010 - 14:00
Dear Lola Regarding option B: in my email “Fight Fire with Water”
Accidentally put passport in cycle 16 superwash with heavy duty wash detergent preferably OMO. You might want to add fabric softener!
This would speed up the process instead of saying it was lost or stolen. I think option A. is best though.
September:21:2010 - 14:07
John, thanks for the advice. My situation has nothing to do with 7 FAM 671.
Solomon2, State Department employees don’t have immunity for crimes they commit such as fraud, forgery, etc. There have been a number of State employees over the years that have engaged in criminal activity.
Do you believe that a State employee has the right to file and execute a government document without the US citizen’s knowledge or consent that said citizen’s US passport is lost (even though it wasn’t) especially at the behest of a foreign government? Would that not be a violation of said citizen’s civil rights?
Do State employees have the right to have an American citizen (non-terrorist) renditioned to a prison in a war zone because said citizen was a whistle blower on criminal acts committed by State employees? The ACLU thought so and were instrumental in recovering said individual.
Furthermore, I have to agree with John about writing your representatives in Congress: State ignores them much like everyone else. And in the end all they do is piss everyone off and accomplish nothing!
As for the ‘your government won’t help you why should we’ comment; I’m not the first and won’t be the last. The embassy could give a rat’s ass!
As to John’s comment: “People really do have to know what they’re getting into before they get into it.” I wonder if all those workers from Thailand that were lied to by recruiters in Hawaii about jobs in the US knew in advance that they were being trafficked. Did they know what they were getting into before they came to the US to work? The positive outcome in their case is their abusers have been arrested, will be prosecuted and the victims are protected, treated as victims and the crimes against them will be redressed. Plus the appropriate government authorities don’t blame the victims, or further punish them. Unlike of course, in Saudi Arabia!!!
It’s no wonder that US lawyers and investigative journalists are working on cases of Americans’ mistreatment overseas by both the foreign governments in questions and the lack of (and in some cases) the collusion of the US government.
I am a single American woman, not married or ever married to a Saudi and have no kids. Shortly after arriving in Saudi I learned that the US recruiter and the Saudi company had lied. I wanted to leave immediately and was told no. I continued voicing rather loudly I wanted out and finally I was scheduled to leave in January (9 months ago).
The person I blame the most for my situation in the first place is a US educated Saudi who had his Saudi wife with him in the States that gave birth to Saudi kids with American citizenship as the other tens of thousands like them. (I am not referring to the kids that are halfers–with American moms.) Ironically, when talking to some of these 100% Saudis with American passports many of them have told me that the US embassy calls them on a regular basis (about once a year) to see how they are doing, do they have any problems, can the embassy help them, etc., and yet born and bred Americans–nothing!
This Saudi man did not follow any Saudi laws, when he received complaints about the horrendous conditions his only answer would be how badly he was treated in the US even though when asked for specific examples of his self proclaimed bad treatment he never gave any answer except to repeat he was treated badly by Americans.
He alone was responsible to make sure I got to the airport to leave. It was a Friday, I needed to leave the hotel (not a populated area) by 3:30 A.M. The Saudi did not provide transportation. By the time I raised enough hell to get transportation and to the airport it was too late to be cleared to fly due to Saudi was one of the 14 countries that had been recently put on the no fly list.
Since many Saudi students were flying to the US (going back to college) and there were only 2 flights a week into Washington, D.C. I was able to get the last seat reserved for me the following Friday. However, I couldn’t confirm it since it was a company paid ticket. Remember, in Saudi a foreigner is at the complete mercy of her/his sponsor. And as a woman alone, it’s even worse, i.e. a big hot sandy prison! Additionally, a woman travelling alone in Saudi by law has to be accompanied by her sponsor or his representative especially to and from the airport to make sure all paperwork and formailities are complete and finalized.
I called my sponsor and told him what happened; he said: “That’s your FUCKING problem!” I waited at the airport for 36 hours for someone from the company to call me or come get me–no one did. At that point I was completely abandoned. (Two months later another American woman found herself in the same boat. She disappeared from the airport and to my knowledge she has not been seen or heard from again. When I asked the American consul about her in June, he said he didn’t know anything about her.)
I emailed my sponsor twice about the next flight, reminded him the company had to confirm it, to have a driver pick me up no later than 3:30 A.M. to make sure I’m at the airport in time to board, and please notify me of the aforementioned. I got a reply the day after the plane left even though my emails were received and opened in plenty of time to take care of the arrangements. I have the evidence to prove ALL my claims!!!
Therefore, for the last 9 months ALL my attempts to have my sponsor redress my situation has resulted in him, the company, the Saudi government and the Saudi human rights organizations ignoring it and me, literally starving me, denying me medical care, and all other rights. Now they have threatened me quite a bit with declaring me illegal, with arrest, with deportation and with complete denial of my legal and human rights that included the human rights lawyer at the Human Rights Commission and the case researcher who incidentally is another US educated Saudi that had his Saudi wife with him in the US that gave birth to kids with American passports. By the way, according to Saudi law it is illegal for a Saudi to possess anything but a Saudi passport.
I have gone to the police twice voluntarily and twice involuntarily and yet none of the 4 times was I actually arrested. I guess the evidence I had to prove my sponsor is solely responsible for this is enough to keep me out of jail, but not enough to have the crimes committed against me redressed or my sponsor charged with any crimes.
There is so much more to my situation but for brevity’s sake, I’ll leave it at this. By the way, the Saudi that has done this to me had a family member of his in Florida:
“Remember Almanajam and Alsidran–the two Saudi men who, in May, boarded a Tampa school bus filled with children? They told a zillion different stories to police about why they were on the bus, except for the apparent one–a dry run to see how easy it would be to hijack and/or blow up a school bus filled with innocent American children. The chief prosecutor treated the Saudi men’s obvious scheme as a simple misdemeanor. But, worse, now he’s taking the easy way out in the face of high-priced defense attorneys paid for by the Saudi Embassy, our “allies” in the War on Terror. The men repeatedly lied to police, obstructed justice, endangered the welfare of children, trespassed on the bus, etc., etc., etc. But they are being charged with none of those crimes and definitely not prosecuted for them. Thanks to MARK OBER.”
It seems that my Saudi sponsor has wasta in both the US and Saudi and regardless of the crimes he’s not arrested much less prosecuted in either country!!! I guess that’s my fault and I should have known what I was getting into!
In other words, my contractual agreement was finished, all that was left was for my sponsor to send me out of Saudi, and instead he has purposely held me against my will in Saudi for 248 days, as of today, without any resources and the Saudi government has colluded with him to do so. Therefore, I can’t leave, can’t change sponsors, can’t work (as it would be a crime), can’t seek medical attention–I have no rights! If my sponsor controlled the air I wouldn’t have air to breathe.
I’ve included additional background material on situations such as this below. As you’ll be able to determine this kind of treatment has been going on for years.
As to the embassy helping citizens in distress read the following from Monica Stowers’ sworn Congressional testimony:
“I called the U.S. embassy and spoke to Frederick Pauleski. I asked him if American citizens could claim sanctuary at the U.S. embassy. He said he thought so, but he was not sure. ‘You’re not thinking about doing something crazy?’ In my situation you do what you have to do.
I went to my daughter’s school wearing an abaya (black cloak) and covered my face like Saudi women do. I went inside the courtyard of the school and saw my daughter. She recognized me by my shoes and followed me out. We went to the embassy with my son.
Pauleski let me in very reluctantly when he saw the hand luggage. We sat on a couch and refused to leave the embassy. It was after 9:00 a.m. A barrage of coaxing, pleading, and then threatening by Pauleski began. He said he was in trouble for letting us in the embassy. ‘Believe me, I’m in more trouble than you!’ was my response.
He left the room and Karla Reed came in. ‘This is not a hotel. We have nowhere for you to stay,’ she said in a not so pleasant tone. ‘I’m claiming sanctuary on U.S. territory.’ I remembered from a civics class that invading an embassy is the same as invading that embassy’s country. ‘People are mistaken if they think this is U.S. soil. This is Saudi soil and the Saudis can come in here whenever they please.’ (More of that “special relationship” I thought.) Later I heard that the U.S. government had to sign an agreement that it would not use the U.S. military stationed in Saudi Arabia to help mothers escape with their children. Karla became more and more aggressive. ‘I’ve been in contact with Washington, and I can have you removed.’ I told her I was not going anywhere. She left in a huff.
Pauleski returned. He informed me that he had called my ex-husband and told him where the children were! ‘He’s a reasonable guy. I’m sure he will come to some kind of agreement with you.’ I can’t believe you did that. Now he will go to the authorities and I’ll be arrested, I said. I pointed out the shabby clothes my daughter was wearing and showed him the bread she had in her bag for lunch. This is something I was to encounter over and over again as I had to deal with the embassy and its rotating personnel over the years: the arrogance of consuls and vice consuls I had to go to for help; their ignorance of the environment they were working in (all the ones I dealt with in the early and mid – 1990′s spoke no Arabic and Syrian clerks were doing any government business that had to be done in English for them); and the utter lack of imagination on their part that something really bad was happening. They were too busy smoozing with big shots and business interests, partying, traveling, and doing whatever it took to make their CVs look good. Many American expats I met over the years encountered the same arrogance and lack of help. ( I had to laugh as I was reading an autobiography written by Kirk Douglas, a movie actor, talking about this same kind of arrogance and ignorance personnel at an embassy in Europe displayed to him! This is no coincidence! Another American mother in the same situation as I, Debra Sultan, told me she called up the embassy and told them her Saudi husband had beaten her and kicked her out of her house, and she was told the embassy is not a hotel!)
Other exchanges – Karla, ‘If you don’t leave, you will make it hard for other American mothers to visit their children. The Saudi government will remember all the trouble you made and not give them visas.’ I could not believe that a U.S. official could sympathize with the Saudi stance against an American mother whose children were stolen from her. I was just seen as a troublesome woman who would not go away! Which American women are you talking about? Is it Pat Roush, Khristine Uhlman, Joy King, Vickie Melko, Laura Phillips? I know them all. None of them would object to me being here. The embassy let me call my mom. I told her what I was doing. Around noon I got a call from Pat Roush, God bless her soul. ‘Don’t you leave there, Monica. You make a stand for all of us,’ she said. I intended on doing just that.
For hours I had to endure this. Around 5:00 p.m. the embassy started closing down, and people were going home. Karla returned. ‘I will put you in an embassy car with the flags flying on it, and it will take you wherever you want to go,’ she said. I don’t have anywhere to go. If you put me outside the embassy gates, I will be arrested and thrown in jail and I will never see my children again, I told her. ‘Oh, you’re just exaggerating. I’m sure nothing will happen to you.’ Can you put that in writing? Can you guarantee that? I asked her. ‘I can’t guarantee anything. You could go outside and be hit by a car. There is no guarantee on anything,’ was her observation. I had trouble seeing the connection. Since you can’t guarantee anything, I’m not going anywhere. Karla was really ticked off. ‘OK, that’s it!’ She left the room, and I could hear her over the intercom calling for security.
Pauleski entered with two marines. My children and I witnessed the following like a bad dream: Pauleski grabbed my son by his left arm and tried to pull him off the couch. ‘Ouch,’ my son cried out. Don’t touch him, I said. Pauleski looked embarrassed. I took out our three U.S. passports and held them out in front of me like a shield. The black marine apologized, ‘I’m sorry ma’am, I’m just doing my job.’ It’s not your fault, I said. The other marine was looking us over trying to decide how to handle it. Rasheed, my son, started to moan and shake. ‘Mom, let’s just get out of here.’ He started crying. My daughter tried to hide her body behind mine and held onto my arm. You remember this day when you went to your country for help, and what they did to us. We’re American citizens and we claim sanctuary in this embassy. I held the passports in front of me. The other marine moved swiftly and scooped up Amjad, my daughter, and carried her out of the room. My son and I had no choice but to follow. I could barely walk. I had to support Rasheed as he walked. It was the longest walk I ever took: down the corridor, outside the building, and outside the gate, which was closed behind us. The Saudi police who are on duty outside the embassy looked at the curious sight of a mother and two children clinging on to each other. All three of us were crying. The marines looked at us from behind the gate. The black marine spoke, ‘Ma’am, you risk further arrest if you remain here.’ Thank you, I answered. (My father, Eddie Stowers, a WWII navy veteren who had been at Normandy and the Pacific theater of war, was particularly disturbed to hear about the Marines being asked to do something like this!)”
“Children abducted to Saudi Arabia wind up in a ‘black hole,’ says Elizabeth Yore of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in Virginia. ‘It is a nightmare of the worst kind,’ Yore says. ‘Saudi Arabia is the most difficult country in the world to recover them from. If this were Bill Gates being held hostage in Saudi Arabia … or an American adult, you can imagine the major diplomatic efforts that would be done. But here are children with no voice.’”
I am an American adult and there has been no diplomatic efforts to help me. I’m not the first either, there’s the case of John McDonald:
“On Nov. 1, 1977, Houston businessman John McDonald flew to Saudi Arabia to consummate a deal for his company. Last month he finally came home again—35 pounds lighter, visibly grayer and, by his own reckoning, $182,000 poorer. During a harrowing six months in the desert kingdom, McDonald says, he was jailed twice, stripped of his passport and refused permission to leave the country unless he submitted to blatant extortion.
After fruitless appeals to the king and the U.S. embassy, the Saudi Arabians wouldn’t let McDonald leave, so he smuggled himself out in a box four feet long but only 30 inches in height and width–shipping himself to Europe as airfreight.”
In regards to Pat Roush’s case: “A former Saudi diplomat who defected to the U.S. three years ago has a unique perspective on the matter. ‘This case is very clear,’ says Mohammed Al-Khilewi, 34, who served as a Saudi diplomat to the U.N. for nine years and now lives in Washington, D.C.
‘The United States closes its mouth, its eyes, its ears, when it comes to Saudi Arabia. They think it will protect its interests there. It is a shame on the Clinton administration that they are not helping this lady and protecting American citizens. They are not putting the right pressure on. When it comes to the Saudi American relationship, the White House should be called the ‘White Tent.’ And the Saudis protect this man, stand behind him even though he kidnapped the children. If they were to return the children, it would be as if they are saying they made a mistake.”
‘The situation has become a bit of a joke to the Saudis,’ Roush says in uncontained outrage. They think ‘Your government isn’t going to help you, won’t back you up, why should we?’ It shouldn’t be that I’m a nuisance to my government, asking them to help me …’
More about this culture of corruption:
A hint of the problem comes from none other than Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi ambassador to the United States. The Washinton Post reports that he boasted of his success at cultivating powerful Americans: “If the reputation . . . builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office, you’d be surprised how much better friends you have who are just coming into office.”
This is precisely what happens. It’s so bad that Mohammed Al-Khilewi (a Saudi diplomat who gained U.S. political asylum after denouncing Riyadh’s despotism in 1994) put it this way: “When it comes to the Saudi-American relationship, the White House should be called the ‘White Tent.’ ”
Ex-Washington hands paid handsomely by the kingdom include such figures as Spiro T. Agnew, Jimmy Carter, Clark Clifford, John B. Connally and William E. Simon. A Washington Post account lists other former officials, including George H.W. Bush, who have found the Saudi connection “lucrative.” It also quotes a Saudi source saying that the Saudis have contributed to every presidential library in recent decades.
Many ex-U.S. ambassadors to Riyadh have received substantial sums of money since John C. West set the gold standard by funding his personal foundation with a $500,000 donation from a single Saudi prince, plus more from other Saudis, soon after he left the kingdom in 1981. Former Ambassador Hume Horan, a great and noble exception to this pattern, explains:
“There have been some people who really do go on the Saudi payroll, and they work as advisers and consultants. Prince Bandar is very good about massaging and promoting relationships like that. Money works wonders, and if you’ve got an awful lot of it, and a royal title – well, it’s amusing to see how some Americans liquefy in front of a foreign potentate, just because he’s called a prince.”
Surveying this problem for National Review, Rod Dreher found the number of ex-ambassadors who push a pro-Saudi line “startling” and concluded that “no other posting pays such rich dividends once one has left it, provided one is willing to become a public and private advocate of Saudi interests.”
Matt Welch looked at five former U.S. ambassadors for Canada’s National Post and concluded, “They have carved out a fine living insulting their own countrymen while shilling for one of the most corrupt regimes on Earth.” If you closed your eyes while listening to their apologies, “you would think the person talking held a Saudi passport.”
The expectation of a payoff even corrupts U.S. government operations in Saudi Arabia. Timothy Hunter, a former U.S. diplomat in Saudi Arabia turned whistleblower, reports that U.S. officials there are “so preoccupied with extraneous duties – entertainment packages for high-level visitors, liquor sales and handling baggage for VIP visitors,” that they have scant time to devote to proper embassy concerns.
The heart of the problem is an all-too-human one: Americans in official positions of authority bend the rules, break with standard procedures and alter policies for reasons of personal gain.
The effect of the Saudis’ massive pre-emptive bribing is to render the executive branch quite incapable of dealing with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in the farsighted and disinterested manner that U.S. national interests require. That leaves Congress with the urgent responsibility to fix things.
It must take steps to ensure that the Saudi revolving-door syndrome described here be made illegal. That might mean that for 10 years or more after having extensive contacts with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, an official may not directly or indirectly receive funds from that source.
Only with this sort of change can U.S. citizens regain confidence in those of their officials dealing with one of the world’s more important states.
The pattern of Saudi fathers abducting children from the United States to Saudi Arabia, and then keeping them there with the full agreement of the Saudi authorities, affects at least 92 children of U.S. mothers and Saudi fathers, perhaps many more. In each of these heartbreaking cases, the State Department has behaved with weakness bordering on sycophancy. To be specific, it has accepted the Saudi law that gives the father near-absolute control over the movement and activities of his children and wife (or wives). The department has made no real efforts to signal its displeasure to the Saudi authorities over these cases, much less made vigorous efforts to free the children held against their American families’ wishes.
Here are three cases featured at a June 2002 hearing in the House of Representatives, organized by Rep. Dan Burton (R-IN):
Alia (b. 1979) and Aisha (b. 1982) al-Gheshayan, are two girls born in the United States and abducted to Saudi Arabia in 1986 by their father, Khalid al-Gheshayan, in defiance of a U.S. court order. Until this past August, they were not allowed to leave Saudi Arabia and their mother, Pat Roush, has had only a few minutes to visit them over the many years. Both children have now reached adulthood and both have been married off; but as females, they cannot leave the country without their male guardian’s protection-first their father, now their husbands.[6] One U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia (Walter Cutler) tried to get the children released, only to be instructed by the State Department to “maintain impartiality” in this dispute, after which his efforts to assist came to an end.[7] A second ambassador (Hume Horan) brought the matter up with a ranking Saudi official but soon after found himself recalled due to Saudi complaints. A third ambassador (Roy Mabus) devised a plan to put pressure on the Gheshayan family to spring the children but, after his departure, the steps he took were all reversed.
Rasheed (b. 1976) and Amjad (b. 1983) Radwan are a boy and girl born in the United States who moved with their parents to Saudi Arabia in 1985. After their father, Nizar Radwan, divorced their mother, Monica Stowers, in 1986, he refused to permit the children to leave the country with her. Stowers left for four years, then returned to take back her children in 1990. In December of that year, she did get them and all three took refuge in the American Embassy, where Stowers desperately sought help to take her children out of the country. Instead, the consul general ordered the Marines to evict mother and children from the premises. Shortly after, the children were taken back to the father and their mother was jailed. Rasheed, being male, could leave Saudi Arabia, which he did in 1996; his sister remains confined there as she enters adulthood.
Yasmine Shalhoub (b. 1986), a girl born in the United States, was abducted by her father to Saudi Arabia in 1997. As her mother, Miriam Hernandez, developed plans to extricate Yasmine from her captivity, the American Embassy made it clear that it would provide no help against the father’s wishes. Left on her own, Hernandez did find a way to smuggle Yasmine out in 1999, and she is now back in the United States-no thanks to her diplomatic representatives.
In all three of these cases-and in the many others like them-the U.S. government has singularly failed to stand up for the rights of its most vulnerable citizens.
The U.S. government’s weak policy can be seen in yet other areas: it does not fight for U.S. scholars or media to get access to the Kingdom; it does not challenge the Saudi refusal to allow American researchers to engage in archaeological excavations; and it provides scant assistance to those unfortunate Americans who get caught up in the Saudi legal system (for something as minor as a fender-bender).
In contrast-and this is a rich subject in its own right-the State Department and other agencies bend over backwards for the Kingdom, for example, going to great lengths to keep secret the specifics of its investments in the United States. And when Saudi nationals living in the United States get in trouble with the law (common charges include various forms of rowdiness, sexual harassment and keeping slaves), they are often granted diplomatic immunity to avoid prosecution, then whisked out of the country. For example, a former U.S. ambassador to Riyadh was dispatched by his Saudi bosses to Miami in April 1982 to keep a Saudi prince from being jailed for altercating with the police by winning him retroactive diplomatic immunity. Or after Princess Buniah al-Saud, a niece of King Fahd, faced charges of battery for having pushed her Indonesian maid down a flight of stairs in her Orlando, Florida house, the maid was conveniently denied a visa by the State Department to return to the United States to testify against the princess. More spectacular was the planeload of bin Ladens permitted to leave the United States immediately after September 11, 2001, before U.S. law enforcement officials could question them.
Over-the-top support of Saudi interests by former ambassador James E. Akins (who has criticized Arab governments for not being tougher with Washington and despaired that Arabs did not withdraw their money from U.S. banks) has caused him to be described as occasionally appearing “more pro-Arab than the Arab officials.”[36]
Several surveys of the post-government careers of ex-U.S. ambassadors to Riyadh all raise eyebrows.
A Washington Post account gives some idea of the nature of the “rich dividends” reaped by former officials:
Americans who have worked with the Saudis in official capacities often remain connected to them when they leave public office, from former president George H.W. Bush, who has given speeches for cash in Saudi Arabia since leaving office, to many previous ambassadors and military officers stationed in the Kingdom. In some cases, these connections have been lucrative. Walter Cutler, who served two tours as the U.S. ambassador in Saudi Arabia, now runs Meridian International Center in Washington, an organization that promotes international understanding through education and exchanges. Saudi donors have been “very supportive” of the center, Cutler said. [Edward] Walker, the former assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern affairs, is president of the Middle East Institute in Washington, which promotes understanding with the Arab world. Its board chairman is former senator Wyche Fowler, ambassador to Riyadh in the second Clinton administration. Saudi contributions covered $200,000 of the institute’s $1.5 million budget last year, Walker said.[40]
Nor is this a new problem. Many ex-Washington hands have been paid off by the Kingdom, including not only a bevy of former ambassadors but also such figures as Spiro T. Agnew, Jimmy Carter, Clark Clifford, John B. Connally and William E. Simon.[41]
U.S. Embassy Contractors in Saudi Arabia May Be Abusing Employees
State Department Watchdog Cites ‘Anecdotal’ Evidence of Labor Trafficking
By Nick Schwellenbach | May 12, 2010
Is the United States inadvertently supporting labor trafficking in Saudi Arabia? A new State Department inspector general (IG) report acknowledges its Riyadh embassy’s challenges in preventing contractors from engaging in labor trafficking, but doesn’t disclose whether trafficking is actually occurring. However, a January letter from the State Department IG to Congress, obtained by the Center, said IG inspectors did find some evidence of trafficking at the embassy.
Saudi Arabia has long been criticized by the U.S. government and civil rights groups for labor trafficking. Men and women from South and Southeast Asia, as well as East Africa, travel to the kingdom to work as low-skilled laborers and some “face conditions indicative of involuntary servitude,” according to the State Department’s annual anti-human trafficking report last year. The Saudi government shows no “significant political commitment” to addressing involuntary servitude, the anti-trafficking report notes, “indeed, an official responsible for such matters has denied that trafficking in persons takes place in Saudi Arabia.” The Saudi embassy did not respond to e-mails requesting comment.
At the U.S. embassy in Riyadh, inspectors found “anecdotal evidence of some behavior that could be classified as labor trafficking,” such as withholding passports, garnishing wages, and summary dismissal of employees working for embassy contractors, according to the IG letter, dated Jan. 15, 2010.
The January letter also hinted at trafficking issues elsewhere in the region. “Other inspections have yielded similar findings” at other American embassies in the Middle East, the letter states, and there are “several reports in draft that will provide greater detail.”
Some believe the U.S. government itself could be doing more to battle labor trafficking. “There has been nearly a decade of less than robust implementation on the contractor side” of the anti-trafficking law, said Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J. referring to a 2000 law he sponsored that aims to prevent human trafficking overseas and domestically. Smith said more needs to be done to stop government contractors from engaging in labor trafficking or sex trafficking, in which women and children are sexually exploited against their will.
The new State Department IG report, released last Thursday, includes only general information about the difficulty in preventing contractors working for the embassy from abusing foreign workers.
“Ensuring that contractors comply with the intent of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, as it relates to the protection and treatment of contractors’ employees, is a significant challenge for Mission Saudi Arabia,” the report notes. The U.S. embassy in Riyadh did not respond to an e-mailed request for comment.
Report Coming on Other U.S. Embassies
Doug Welty, a spokesman for the State Department IG, said a forthcoming audit report will go into more detail about what auditors found this spring at U.S. embassies in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.
“You’ll have to wait for the report,” Welty said. “The audit will have more detail.” The State Department’s IG inspectors did not delve as deeply into the issue as the department’s auditors, Welty said. “The reason why the inspection report has a recommendation at all is they wanted to put a marker in the sand to show that they’re looking into this.”
The primary area of concern appears to be with contractors who perform service work for the U.S. embassy.
“Mission Saudi Arabia is heavily dependent on third country labor and has contracted for gardening and janitorial services with estimated total values (based on a five-year contract) of $1.6 million and $2.5 million respectively,” says the IG report.
The inspection report and letter do not say whether or not the contractors are foreign companies or U.S. companies. However, unnamed “Miscellaneous Foreign Contractors” are on a five-year State Department contract for “gardening services” in Saudi Arabia, according to USAspending.gov, the government’s contracting database. “Miscellaneous Foreign Contractors” are also listed as performing janitorial services for the State Department in Saudi Arabia as well. Welty said he believes the companies are foreign, but was unable to reach the inspection team leader to verify his contentions.
Embassy officials “responsible for overseeing the contracts were unaware of any problems related to trafficking activities,” the recently released report says. What follows that sentence in the report is redacted.
The letter states that the Riyadh embassy inspection went farther than most other embassy inspections. The extra step included interviews with “locally employed staff about contractors’ behavior with respect to trafficking in persons.” This additional information is unmentioned the publicly released report.
Welty said he believes the redacted section “might have something to do with national security.” The redaction cites a Freedom of Information Act exemption related to “Internal Personnel Rules and Practices,” which includes matters that can “impede the effectiveness of an agency’s law enforcement activities,” according to a Justice Department website.
The report outlines the overall lack of protection for foreign workers.
“Prevailing practice in Saudi Arabia includes a number of elements (such as holding an employee’s passport) that can be considered coercion of the employee and the loss of his or her freedom of movement,” the report says. “Third country nationals performing most service-related functions have little protection, in an environment that affords them limited recourse.”
“In law and in practice, labor problems in Saudi Arabia are most egregious regarding the treatment of the large population of third country nationals, who have few effective protections in country. The labor law outlines penalties for certain abuses, including trafficking in persons, but the government rarely enforces fines or penalties on abusive employers.”
The U.S. embassy, the report said, “should develop and implement standard operating procedures for monitoring contracts’ and contractors’ compliance with anti-trafficking requirements.”
September:21:2010 - 14:45
Sparky–thank you for everything–you do indeed ROCK!!!
September:21:2010 - 15:13
Lola you are more than welcome
I think John ROCKS because he lets us have a voice whether or not he agrees. He has never and I have been following this blog I believe for four years…can’t remember I lose track of time…uh he has never said anything that doesn’t make sense really he is like an alien
September:21:2010 - 15:26
Lola, I’ll give a longer response later, but in the meantime, you should cut-and-paste the first part of your comment here and send it to both The Washington Post and The New York Times. I recommend leaving out the two lengthy citations on State’s perceived wrong-doing as they dilute your situation and that info is available if a writer wants it. You might also try papers like The Examiner and The Washington Times, who would be glad to put pressure on the Obama Administration for their own, partisan reasons; the issue is your problem, not electoral politics, right?
Send it to the newspaper and TV stations that cover your hometown, no matter the size.
September:21:2010 - 15:27
P.S. that woman who went missing in March 2010 you mentioned I sat next to her at work. I know I know unbelievable!!!!!! Remember I told you Lola. Just in case someone employed at the U.S. embassy will know I’m telling the truth. The missing American woman’s initial are L.L. not L.L cool J. I emailed her to check on her and never got a response from her. I told her not to worry we all get crazy sometimes. I called the U.S. embassy to check on her they transferred me to the FBI. I never even knew the US embassy has someone who says they are the FBI. The woman was smiling until I told her my name. i think she took dooky in pants. I don’t think they like me for some reason. Anyhow I left my number and was supposed to receive an update on her but never got one. So we are left to think she may be dead in some ditch somewhere but a friend who has “contacts” at the embassy said the woman was safe with her father who had power of attorney of her for some time. The poor woman drove me mad daily. She was too normal. That is a red flag. Ppl who act too normal and perfect are usually really NUTTY.
September:21:2010 - 15:30
The FBI woman was smiling over the phone yeah we all know when someone is smiling over the phone.
September:22:2010 - 02:17
Lola you might want to call one or both of these hotlines:
OVERSEAS CITIZENS SERVICES: Call 1-888-407-4747 (from overseas: 202-501-4444) for answers related to questions concerning the:
* Death or Injury of an American citizen abroad
* Arrest/detention of an American citizen abroad
* Victims of crime abroad
* American citizens missing abroad
* Abduction of a child abroad
(I believe you are technically being “detained” here!)
http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/emergencies/emergencies_1212.html
The Office of Inspector General Hotline is a clearinghouse for receiving and handling allegations regarding fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement or misconduct affecting Department of State programs and operations. Examples of allegations that should be reported to the OIG Hotline include:
http://oig.state.gov/hotline/
Mail:
Office of Inspector General
HOTLINE
P.O. Box 9778
Arlington, Virginia 22219
Phone:
202-647-3320 or 800-409-9926
September:22:2010 - 03:07
Important message:
Green Alien- Reptilian Race & Hidden Warnings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_9XBPEl0oM
LMFAO at what I see when I go to the LU
September:22:2010 - 09:51
Lola, you are in a terrible situation, but you sure wrote a good letter. John says to send it to the media; I say send it to your congressman and senator.
September:23:2010 - 03:30
John, waiting for your longer response.
Sparky, re your comment #162 see my comment #145-first paragraph.
Solomon2, thank you.
September:23:2010 - 08:03
Lola thanks…I overlooked that. I thought it was an example. Have you tried the first number? 202-501-4444. I have called once when the embassy was hassling me about a photo and prompt action was taken to my liking.
So many options have been laid out. I can’t say which one is best for you. I know you have exhausted so many appropriate channels. The sending your story off to the newspapers and appealing to the American public seems the next logical step since you have tried all else. You have to decide which way is best other than becoming a criminal so that they arrest you
I will write back to your emails shortly.
September:23:2010 - 08:18
I’m very familiar with the various cases (Stower, Roush, et al.) because I was at the Embassy in Riyadh at the time Congress was holding its hearings. I know that the Embassy changed its policy–before Congress asked–to provide shelter for American women and their children in similar cases. In fact, the Embassy was, at the height of the flurry in 2002, was housing up to six different women/families. USG attorneys were not at all pleased because this exposed the government to an array of legal liabilities which are neither funded nor authorized by US law. I’d note, parenthetically, that that led to problems with housing for people being paid to work at the Embassy. I ended up with two, at times three contractors living with me.
I do know that many of the ‘facts’ stated by both the women and Rep. Burton were not true and contradicted by contemporary documentation. I also know that while there were six active cases in the KSA at that time, there were over 80 in Germany. Oddly, no Congressional hearings were held to discuss the problems with Germany, only Saudi Arabia. Nor were there hearings on Mexico, with hundreds of active cases. To me–as well as to the Saudis–this seems to be grandstanding and political expediency, not a true effort to address a serious problem.
Most important is the fact, unwelcome as some might find it, that US law does not apply in a foreign country. The US has no more authority to impose its laws in the KSA than the KSA does to impose its law in the US. I think we want to keep it that way.
People traveling, working, living, marrying abroad do have a responsibility to learn what local laws permit/prohibit; what rights they gain or lose; how the local legal system works. Few bother and in most cases, it doesn’t matter. But when it does matter, it matters greatly. Saudi law is very peculiar in many regards, but it is still valid law. Saudi law says that children are the ‘property’ of their fathers, regardless of whether a US court gives a mother custody. Saudi law gives fathers far greater power over whom their daughters marry than most Americans think fair. An Embassy can negotiate, argue, cajole the Saudis–both government and individuals–to make exceptions, but it cannot force anyone to make an exception. Again, the exact policies and international law apply to Saudis in the US.
What US Embassies can do is spelled out in the FAM (Foreign Affairs Manual). This manual not only tells what is authorized, but also the penalties for not complying with regulation. This is not a static document; it is updated at least a couple dozen times a year. But nowhere does it authorize breaking local laws.
Congress has chosen to not fund attorneys for American citizens abroad. It has chosen to not permit Embassies to recommend particular attorneys (or doctors or dentists or any specialist), but limits Embassies to providing lists. Congress has chosen to not permit Embassies to lend money to American citizens abroad, in any but very limited circumstances. Congress doesn’t even authorize repatriating the remains of Americans who die abroad unless the families of the deceased pay the freight and all associated fees. Now, I perfectly realize that this is not what many Americans expect from an Embassy, but the problem is not the Embassy, it’s Congress. The solution lies in Congress, not the Embassy, not State Dept.
Trafficking in Humans is a global problem, one to which the US is not immune. State Dept. identifies Saudi Arabia as a ‘Tier 3′ country when it comes to trafficking, i.e., “A country whose government does not fully comply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so.” The USG recognizes the problem and is working with the Saudis to fix it. That, as you can well imagine, is not going to happen fast.
As far as the Embassy contracting with employers who may be exploiting their own employees go, well, I wouldn’t be surprised if that were true. The Embassy is neither funded to nor currently charged with investigating the background of its contractors in that regard. I could do it, given the resources, but it’s not given the resources, not money, not staff, not administrative support. Who can provide those resource? Well, that’d be Congress.
I do note the problem with some US diplomats turning around after retirement and becoming, essentially, employees of the Saudi government. While legal, I consider that unseemly. But I also know that many of the complaints made against former American diplomats are not warranted, but instead provide an easy target for those inimical to Saudi Arabia or Arabs in general. To avoid that taint and to avoid becoming a target, I simply refuse to take funding for this blog from the Saudi gov’t. I also refuse funding from the US gov’t. I’d rather be free to say what I want rather than worry about whether I’ll lose a paycheck or, worse, credibility.
September:23:2010 - 09:10
Well put together…seems like a lot of chaos with those laws changing a few times a year. Some of the Saudis I spoke to seem to think that America will provide a free lawyer at the American’s persistance. I know of a case where they have helped even non Americans pro bono. Furthermore, I guarantee I can get out of the country without an exit visa or permission. I have tried it before and was told that they will pull their strings at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs/ Ministry of Interior. However, I was told that I will never get back again. I seem to doubt that is true.
I know at least for the Brits they will get their citizens in and out whether or not married to Saudis. In out in out. Maybe the employees at the U.S. embassy just don’t want to do extra work, are lazy or have more “important” things to do from their perspective. I find it troublesome when the embassy will provide assistance to non U.S. citizens when tax paying citizens who I am sure have plenty of tax paying relatives can’t get legal help.
September:23:2010 - 09:22
Light bulb moment…tell them at the US embassy to pull their strings and get you out before you lose your mind and Fuck in Assassinate someone! Just a try! I mean I think that would work.
September:23:2010 - 09:29
Sparky: I cannot offer anything useful about the particular cases you mention. Not only is there not enough detail, but I don’t know the full circumstances. I do know that the Consular Officers with whom I’ve worked are not lazy and spend much of their own time–i.e., off the clock–trying to deal with issues.
I wouldn’t doubt that the Saudis could/would block your return to the KSA if you pulled what they saw as an end-around their laws to exit. It’s simply too easy to put a name on a no-entry list. While it’s great to have an emergency exit, I wouldn’t count on finding an emergency entrance.
The Embassy could, conceivably, help with a lawyer, but only if they got direct orders to do so. The general rule is, ‘List only’. That’s for all US Embassies, anywhere in the world.
PS: The FAM is a massive, multi-volume set of books. Most of the changes are minor tweaks and the vast majority of them have nothing to do with Citizen Services, things like how to do a comparison on local wages or how do manage a motor pool.
September:23:2010 - 11:25
Most important is the fact, unwelcome as some might find it, that US law does not apply in a foreign country. The US has no more authority to impose its laws in the KSA than the KSA does to impose its law in the US. I think we want to keep it that way.
This idea that one’s own country’s laws don’t apply in a different country and there is precious little that your national embassy can do about that seems to bounce off some people I’ve met while traveling, as if it were Teflon.
Canadian airports have a pamphlet addressed to Canadians, and prominently displayed in exit lounges, “Before You Go”, which essentially reminds one to obey the laws of the country one is in, as those are the laws that apply no matter how brief the stay there; and that the Canadian Embassy can offer little beyond “awareness of the issue” “family notification” “a visit from the consul” or some such.
September:23:2010 - 11:26
Slightly off-topic, but I heard from more than one person stuck in Beirut during the Israeli invasion a couple summers ago- the US Embassy there wasn’t very helpful about getting Americans out. The Lebanese gov’t helped some, the Syrian gov’t and the Saudi gov’t helped those that worked in Saudi. It really hit me wrong to hear that these governments helped our citezens more than the US gov’t.
Personally, I once needed help on an important, though not critical issue. I was helped by some Consulate people- who unfortunately were relocated and my case was taken over by people who couldn’t even bother to tell me to “bugger off”. To me the moral is- it’s worth asking/trying for help, but don’t really expect much.
September:23:2010 - 13:13
Again, I don’t know the particulars. I do know that in an earlier episode, when Americans were being officially evacuated from Beirut (a status that might not have applied in the event you mention), my sister-in-law was actively engaged. The policy at that time–it may have changed–was the American citizens were evacuated before any other nationality and that pets weren’t permitted on the helicopters. Several decided to stay because they couldn’t take their pets.