Saudi Gazette runs this cartoon on young Saudis’ likelihood of finding a job…
Credit: Saudi Gazette
March:13:2010 - 09:27 | Comments & Trackbacks (63) | Permalink
63 Responses to “Job Prospects Dim for Young Saudis”
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March:13:2010 - 10:54
Very true.
March:13:2010 - 16:11
Daisy–how do you know?
Very funny cartoon taking advantage of cultural heritage (the stories of the 1001 Arabian Nights (or perso-arabian to be precise) to make a contemporary point.
March:13:2010 - 16:22
I have my reservations about the subject. Saudi is a heavy consumerist society, there is always demand even for accessories and services. I believe with entrepreneurship and more proactive approach to small business projects you will see successful employment programs. A good example is Abdulatif Jameel program http://www.babrizqjameel.com/success_stories/default.aspx?page_id=str
I think there are a lot of jobs for Saudis, especially for stores and franchise restaurants… but they need to supported by the government to encourage small business to invest time and money of them. Because its much cheaper to hire foreign labor and less problematic.
Their youtube channel is very interesting as well it has a lot of videos that target many of the obstacles some put against their own with such programs.
http://www.youtube.com/babrizqjameel
March:13:2010 - 16:32
DW–good to read your input. You are well-placed professionally to know about this. Thanks!
March:13:2010 - 17:47
even if all jobs held by foreigners are replaced by the subjects of al-Saud, there is still a problem.
i say this to differentiate it from job /creation/. entrepreneurship helps in this case but if it’s in consumerist fields like food and merchandise, it wont help much.
we all know job creation lies in innovation: which is something not to be expected from the kingdom of al-Saud.
March:13:2010 - 22:14
Please take out time to go through this link –
http://theanotherfaceofsaudiarbai.blogspot.com/
March:14:2010 - 09:07
Sparky,
Perhaps you can tell us if the photos in the link above give a true portrayal of Saudi Arabia.
March:14:2010 - 10:57
I’ll step in and say that the pictures are not false, but they do not convey a ‘true portrayal of Saudi Arabia’ any more than photos that focused on the slums of Calcutta juxtaposed with pictures of Bollywood extravagance would be a true picture of India. Not inaccurate, but less than the full story.
March:14:2010 - 21:50
Thanks John, for your response. But I feel this is an important issue – slums of Calcutta get enough coverage in the international media and I am not opposed to it.
But why is it that these faces of Saudi Arabia don’t get coverage in any public sphere? Why are the people kept in the dark about it? Why do the blogs on Saudi Arabia from the Western people not talk about it? Why is Saudi Arabia portrayed as a country of rich people when that is not true? Isn’t that by design?
Isn’t this because the West wants to see the slums of Calcutta and not the developed parts of India and it wants to close its eyes towards the abject poverty of Saudi Arabia?
Is religion more important an issue than poverty? Why is it that a post on religious issues in Saudi Arabia gets scores of comments but a post of poverty of Saudi Arabia does not have the well-wishing Western friends of Saudis talking about it?
Isn’t it time the world should talk about it?
I am yet to recover from the shock of seeing these images. And I don’t even consider myself a friend of the Saudis.
Don’t you find it disturbing John as a well-wisher of Saudi Arabia to see these images?
March:14:2010 - 23:22
Maybe because poverty isn’t seen as a really big news item. Even as far back as Biblical days (Mark 14:7), we learn ‘The poor are with us always.’ Glamor and glitz are more ‘infotainment’ oriented. So, while even Indian newspapers will report on the poor, the glamorous Bollywood stars and the society figures get prominent placement and magazine all to themselves. Poverty, as a news topic, is pretty much restricted to social and developmental journals, not any popular press.
Too, the stereotype of ‘rich Saudi’ is a strong one. Talking about ‘poor Saudis’ causes dissonance and people don’t like dissonance.
The fact is that in many regards, Saudi Arabia is still a developing country, with many of the problems–starting with wrenching poverty–among them.
March:15:2010 - 00:29
In Morocco the poor are considered a shame on society so the bidonvilles on the outskirts of Casablanca and the inner city poor are hidden behind “les murs de la honte” the walls of societal shame.
Perhaps something similar is operant within Saudi regarding silence on this topic. Not airing one’s dirty laundry would be a similar idea.
March:15:2010 - 00:37
There is something to what you say Chiara. Also, there is a tremendous number of poor illegal immigrants here. And like the US and it’s issues in border states like California- how much should be done for them? There is not a simple answer. They don’t want more illegals- but if they treat them very well, more will come. Saudi’s tend to be very generous to beggers etc. I suppose that is part of why they keep coming. It is better than their previous life or they wouldn’t come. Of course there are organized begging groups etc, and they have there territories etc. Also children are involved and they’ve been trying to stop that as well, but people keep pouring in, and many of them destroy their documentation once here so it is difficult to prove to anyone where they belong, or to determine how to send them home.
March:15:2010 - 00:58
John,
You are right that in many ways Saudi Arabia is a developing country and the world should know it. It creates dissonance in the society to talk about the poverty of a country presumed to be rich, but this dissonance is necessary. Hiding it away from the world is not going to solve the problem.
Why is it that poverty of Asian or African countries doesn’t create a dissonance? Why does it make news to talk about the poverty of these countries? Why are their development aspects not news? Why are small-scale social reforms in Saudi Arabia news? Isn’t this a design of the world to portray a good picture of Saudi Arabia? Why should this design be there?
I’m not saying the world should stop focusing on the poverty of the Third World, but in the same token, the poverty of Saudi Arabia should be highlighted – more by the Western well-wishers of the country. After all it’s not as if Saudi Arabia doesn’t have money – that money is controlled by a chosen elite class. If only this money is used for developmental causes, a lot can be done for Saudi Arabia, considering the amount of wealth it has. I feel if the Western people are really the friends of the Saudis, they should talk about it so that this wealth can begin to be used for developmental causes.
At least in the case of Saudi Arabia, this poverty can be solved to a large extent, if only the international focus shifts towards it.
March:15:2010 - 01:08
Add to that – why does the present King not use the Saudi wealth for developmental causes?
March:15:2010 - 10:09
Saudis are very averse to airing dirty laundry. Until recently, for example, is was a criminal offense to take photo of a slum. You still see letters in Saudi papers condemning the paper or a writer for doing a piece that ‘exposes the country/society/religion/government to shame’. The same attitude, of course, is what leads families to ‘hide’ a child with physical or mental defect. At its worst, it’s the excuse for ‘honor killings’.
March:15:2010 - 10:17
Well, I am writing about Saudi poverty, though only in the context of trying to accurately describe an extremely complicated country and society. You could pick a group that suffers from poverty why it is poor but still leave out thousands of others who are poor for other reasons. Illegal immigration is a very serious problem, but solving the poverty problems of illegal immigrants is very different from solving the problems of poor Bedouins.
Saudi Arabia deports tens of thousands of illegal immigrants every year, but more keep coming. As Sandy notes, Saudi poverty is better than poverty in many other countries. Even working under unfair and harsh practices in Saudi Arabia is better than the poverty to which certain types of foreign workers would face if they stayed at home. Limiting legal immigration works to an extent, but doesn’t work when it comes to illegal immigration.
Poverty in third-world countries isn’t deemed newsworthy because it seems to be the norm. The norm, by definition, isn’t ‘news’.
March:15:2010 - 10:27
The King of Saudi Arabia is not an absolute monarch–a trope popular in some media. He does not have the power to act with total freedom. Instead, he must work through consultation with various power groups and find consensus before any action can be taken. He has stated, for example, that he thinks women should be permitted to drive. But society is not ready for that, so women aren’t driving yet. When society reaches the point where more approve of women’s driving than disapprove, then women will drive.
The King also does push government and society toward reform as well as numerous social benefit programs. These can be direct as in welfare payments, or indirect as in improving infrastructure. An example of that would be his dedicating 25% of the budget to education.
The problem, as I see it, is that it’s not just one problem. Saudi Arabia is deficient on many fronts and most of those are intertwined. To get to the goal of ‘women’s driving’ (just as an example, and not the most important goal), there needs to be a shift in society’s conception of the ‘proper role for women’; a shift in religious viewpoint about protecting the virtue of women (and thus the family and the males of the family); a shift in laws that govern not only driving, but also harassment, traffic regulation, licensing, even the setting up of offices to issue licenses in a religio-socially acceptable way.
I don’t think there’s a ‘magic domino’ that can be pushed to make all the others fall down in order. The different problems need to be tweezed out and addressed, but every time a thread is pulled, it affects the rest of the fabric. I’ve always joked that while I’d love to have the perks of the King of Saudi Arabia, I’d really hate to have the job.
March:15:2010 - 10:36
John,
Poverty in the Third World is always news. Only in Saudi Arabia it’s not news. It’s not justified that they can hide all their poverty under the pretext of not washing the dirty linen in public. It’s not a cultural norm – it’s a pretext to hide a problem they can solve. They should be made accountable for it.
The above link in fact shows a mentally disturbed woman in cage in a public space. There is no attempt to hide her. I don’t think this so-called excuse of the Saudis that they hide their ugly picture is true. This is an excuse they have made up for the Western people who are brought up on the ugly myth of fabulous Saudi wealth.
I’m not even talking about the immigrants. I’m talking about the Saudis who are living below the poverty line and who are not getting the benefit of the Saudi wealth that the royal family is enjoying. This is a serious social crime on the part of the royal family of Saudi Arabia and this should be highlighted.
It’s easy for the Saudis to immediately talk about the illegal immigrants when someone talks about their poverty. It’s because the Third World can be made an easy scapegoat.
No one talks about the hoards of Saudi men who come to South Asia and engage in illegal sex-trade – so much for their claim to so-called religious leadership. What will happen if the South Asian governments will begin deporting them? Who speaks against their illegal activities? It’s not politically correct to talk about it because Saudi Arabia has tried every method in the book to avoid criticism.
March:15:2010 - 10:38
And who talks about the exploitation, abuse and ill-treatment meted out to the Third Workers in Saudi Arabia on a regular basis? Why is it justified in the world’s eyes? Why should the Saudi Arabia not be brought to accountability for this?
March:15:2010 - 10:49
I went and re-looked at the slide show. I saw no woman in a cage. I suppose anything is possible but John is right, the NORM is to hide things that are abnormal. No doubt there is some abject poverty in Saudi, but the slide show was a bit misleading comparing African cities with Saudi ones? It was quite selective in making Saudi look much worse, when I know ther are very nice parts of Saudi cities and very poor parts of African ones. Also, while garbage is definately a problem here- part of that is the people themselves. It is all very complicated- and I’m pretty sure some of the people in the slidshow were not Saudi at all- which was why I brought up the issue of illegal aliens.
I think many people here and in the international community talk about the poverty/social issues in Saudi- as well as the mistreatment of foreign labor. Of course, if one doesn’t want to see that, they won’t, even when it’s right in front of them.
March:15:2010 - 11:32
Sandy #12–thanks for your comment and elaborating on local factors which may be in play in Saudi.
John #15–the aversion to public showing of negatives is common to Arab and other MENA cultures. The honour killings are a part of that of course, but they are also a very public way of demonstrating that honour has been restored, which is the point of them if not the cause, ie the public restoration of honour, and the prevention of recidivism by the dishonourable.
John #16 & 17–Agreed. Absolute monarchs are usually not so absolute as people think, and are subject to beheading by their subjects, insurgencies, rivalrous family homicides for the throne etc. AKA Henry II of England of The Lion in Winter fame or revolution and exile eg the Shah of Iran. King Abdullah seems to know how to proceed in a more cautious but durable stepwise fashion.
Daisy #18 and #19–although I agree with Sandy in #20 that Saudi based issues are being addressed in the English language Saudi blogosphere, perhaps a more direct focus on the intricacies of Saudi-South Asian mutual invasion by “hordes” is being better addressed on South Asian blogs or South Asians in Saudi blogs, or Saudis in South Asia blogs. Just a thought. Western folk don’t seem to me to be as disingenuous about Saudi as you assume. At least not the regular readers and commentators. Again, just a thought.
Sandy #20–the woman in the cage photo is way back here and excellent commentator DW left one of his enlightening comments there which summarized the woman’s family’s plight and how this was a temporary measure to ensure that she didn’t harm others ie siblings (or herself presumably). He provided the link to the original article which is a plea for the funds to access the appropriate services for her which the family knew about but didn’t have the means (time, personnel, and transportation included) to access.
I agree with the rest of your comment.
March:15:2010 - 12:49
@17
the king DOES have absolute authority. his ‘consultations’ are not binding. he chooses to ‘consult’ to see what he can get away with. he is simply playing the political game and he expends points when he /really/ wants to get something done in a dictatorial fashion. he can even make an unpopular move seem as though it were not made by him.
also, his bros. limit his authority by not heeding to his directives. to outsiders, this seems as if the king is a ‘reformer’ while some of his brothers are ‘obstacles’. in reality, it’s every prince trying to gain political points. yes, that’s what every politician does in free(er) countries do, but in free(er) countries the political system works for the people and makes politicians’ gain, the people’s gain. the al-Sauds don’t even have a system among themselves.
take the example of poverty, the government can afford to pay every poor citizen an amount for sustenance as a right. but the al-Sauds buy (cheap) points from the people by offering ‘favors’. they want people to line up at their palaces and beg which gives them power which is their interest. furthermore, the al-Sauds compete among themselves to buy people.
pathetic.
March:15:2010 - 13:26
these illegal foreigners have a more honorable existence in their home countries even though they are, materially, less well off.
many subjects of al-Saud do not think highly of south asian workers when they themselves have more rights in india as foreigners than they have as subjects of al-Saud.
this is the curse of money. the poorer an *individual* is, the more tolerant he is of becoming a subject/slave to better his material standing. the richer a *society* is, the more tolerant it is to being governed by a dictator; and this is the case of the Gulf statelets. meanwhile the the bar of tolerance is getting lower for the kingdom of al-Saud with declining economic conditions even given high oil prices. couple that with the shame of begging in arab culture.
do you still think they try to better the economic condition of the country for the benefit of the people?
March:15:2010 - 15:29
The King does not have absolute authority, unless you mean that he can make a decision and then be removed from office for having made it. If nothing else, the Saudi government (and particularly kings) is well aware of what happened in Iran, when the Shah got too far ahead of society. Oops! No more shah!! The also know what happened in Romania, when the government truly oppressed the population. Oops, isn’t that Ceausescu dangling from a lamp post?
Say what you like about Saudi leadership, they do not have a collective suicide wish.
What you describe as the ‘Al-Saud way’ happens to be the way power and riches have traditionally been shared in Arab society: Patron : Client. A patron has responsibilities toward the client and the client has ‘duties’ toward the patron. That’s changing, but it’s still quite normal for people to expect their relatives to find jobs for the youth in the family and to share out the goodies that come with high-ranking jobs. It needn’t be a minister in question. This dynamic applies across the board, even in the private sector. Changing that is part of the many changes that Saudi society is going through now. It’s happening, but not quickly.
March:15:2010 - 15:31
Yes, overall the plight of the average Saudi is far better than it was 70 years ago. It’s better than it was 50, 30, 20, or 10 years ago. So obviously, some of that money is being used to better the economic condition of the country. Government efforts to expand and diversify the economy also seem to be working. Employment, though, is still a major problem with no easy resolution in sight.
March:15:2010 - 17:19
as usual, i agree with you but differ on labels and extents.
@24
define ‘absolute authority’. it’s defined here, in the collective wiki fashion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy. it is SPOT ON this definition! oh, saudi arabia even mentioned as an example.
of course there is a gray area b/w free and absolute that depends on the feedback b/w the gov and the governed. in a free society this feedback is strong (and vice versa).
your description of arab society as patron/client is a little vague. i would only apply this to the society of Arabia for the past few hundred years. in other words, it is tribal. you’re always assoc w/ a tribe so that if a pan-tribal gov fails you can fall back to your tribe. mind you of all this being unislamic which is the claimed guide of the saudi state.
@25
as measured by unemployment, inequality, and crime, it’s worse than it was even 10 years ago (reliable statistics are not available.)
but these development projects take at least a decade to register.
March:15:2010 - 17:54
Client:Patron societies are nearly as old as the hills. Classical Rome and Medieval China (arguably, Modern China) are clear examples, as are the Feudal periods of Western society. So are, for that matter, the societies that revolve around the Mob or Mafia or Cammarge, or many other gangster groups. Here’s an interesting paper, from 1998 in Norway, that argues that Client:Patron relationships are an all-but-necessary step in the development of civil societies. It’s a 17-page PDF:
THE ROLE OF CIVIL SOCIETY AND PATRON-CLIENT NETWORKS IN THE ANALYSIS OF CORRUPTION
March:15:2010 - 19:50
“Some say that Saudis secretly see the world’s peoples as divided into two basic categories: (1) fellow Saudis; and (2) potential employees.”
March:15:2010 - 20:28
That’s changing, but it’s still quite normal for people to expect their relatives to find jobs for the youth in the family and to share out the goodies that come with high-ranking jobs.
John: That’s the same the whole world over. It’s a bit unfair to consider it a Saudi characteristic alone:)
March:15:2010 - 21:03
I don’t consider it uniquely Saudi in the least. It’s a fundamental part of client:patron relationships, one of the patterns that underlay Saudi society, but also many, many others.
I think that kind of relationship is transitional, a step between out-and-out thuggery in which the powerful takes what he wants, and a stage in which a society sees itself as more important than its parts in some regards.
March:15:2010 - 22:43
Please see the link below for the picture of a mentally disturbed woman in cage in a public place –
http://theanotherfaceofsaudiarbai.blogspot.com/2009/12/poor-sick-saudi-woman-in-cageriyadh2009.html
This site has link at the right bottom of the page saying “Older Posts”. You have to click on the link to see the entire site, which has some 5-6 pages.
Will get back later with other comments.
March:15:2010 - 23:35
John #27 thanks.
Re: the caged lady picture–I repeat my comment when this was posted yesterday on another thread on this blog, and suggest strongly one reads DW’s comment on the original post, and the link to the original newspaper article:
…excellent commentator DW left one of his enlightening comments there which summarized the woman’s family’s plight and how this was a temporary measure to ensure that she didn’t harm others ie siblings (or herself presumably). He provided the link to the original article which is a plea for the funds to access the appropriate services for her which the family knew about but didn’t have the means (time, personnel, and transportation included) to access.
March:16:2010 - 05:51
PS the original article in Al-Riyadh shows photos of the living conditions of the family, in a trailer they move about the desert in, and she along with them. It also gives the brother’s and the editor’s mobile phone numbers for donations so she can receive mental health care and social supports.
March:16:2010 - 11:36
It is extremely shameful that a self-proclaimed psychiatrist should support a so-called temporary measure to keep a mentally disturbed woman in cage in public.
The entire argument behind this debate is that there are people in Saudi Arabia who are forced to keep their mentally disturbed family members in cage because they don’t have the means to get them treated. And this aspect of Saudi society does not disturb the Western world. Rather the self-proclaimed psychiatrists of the West don’t feel ashamed to support it!
March:16:2010 - 11:43
John,
The royal family in Saudi Arabia holds the wealth that should be spent on developmental causes. And if the King doesn’t have the power to get this money released for this purpose, he has no right to be King and the US shouldn’t be supporting such a King – his liberating measures not withstanding. If the King spends half of his own income for development, he can do a lot to uplift the poor people in Saudi Arabia. He can at least stop the construction of pleasure palaces for the royal family in Europe and get that money spent on development. I don’t see why the powerful groups with whom he is having a nexus should object to that.
In any case if he is just having a nexus with the powerful elites to stay in power, his rule is not even legitimate.
March:16:2010 - 12:25
I didn’t hear ANYONE support the idea of the woman in the cage.
It was merely explained, WHY it was happening. Why the family with this very difficult situation, chose to do this. It was a statement on the concern of the family, rather than a commentary on the management and spending of wealth on a social support system with some glaring incompetencies- such as this case.
At least that’s what I heard.
March:16:2010 - 13:27
Daisy #34–What part of John’s comment against personal attacks and ad hominem arguments didn’t you understand? Or don’t you think it applies to you? I don’t need to be self-proclaimed, I am licenced and have done years of specialty training culminating in 2 sets of exams for different psychiatry specialty licenses. I am American board certifiable in psychiatry if I choose to take those exams, and the same with a number of other countries. Please do not denigrate that about which you know nothing.
I fully understand your blatant argument about Saudis being impoverished while the King eats caviar, but given my training and interests, as well as a desire for a modicum of accuracy in a blog of high calibre such as this one, as opposed to a forum for ranting–even well constructed ranting of a non-vulgar nature–and Saudi-bashing, I felt compelled to check out the “information” you gave about a mentally ill woman; to provide the correct URL for the photo; and the link to DW’s helpful comment and his link. Since you commented there after him, I can only assume that you chose to read and ignore his helpful summary of the Al-Riyadh article.
If you knew anything about cross-cultural psychiatry you would know the high level of stigma that exists in most non-Western countries, including MENA and Asian ones, and how unique it is that this woman’s family had sought diagnosis and treatment previously from a hospital, but now cannot afford the ongoing services she would need; and all the more so because of general poverty that keeps them roaming around in the mobile home, which is also her home, and living on one paltry salary. It is to this family’s credit that they are willing to expose the “shame” of their family member’s illness to try to get help for her.
It also speaks to the severity of this woman’s illness that help was sought and continues to be sought. By experience with a number of traditional cultures this often happens only when the person is physically aggressive enough that the strongest man in the family cannot handle them anymore. Otherwise, their illnesses are hidden, as are they, and various remedies, scientific and not, tried. While this may sound cruel, within the logic of the society it is protective of the person and the family.
Read in context, this cage is a relative kindness. The carpet on the one side offers shade, and it is more likely better for her to be outside at times in the day in a safe environment, rather than cooped up in the trailer non-stop, which would most likely only set her off, and risk harm to herself and others. At the very least, you must have read in the Saudi blogosphere of the horrors of Vit D deficiency (greatly exaggerated to an number of unrelated illnesses by the way) from a lack of sun exposure.
Contrary to what you seem to believe/wish to project, the family is not putting her on public display. They, and she, are out in the desert. That they allowed this photo, and that the journalist encouraged it in a bid to get more charitable funds, are both logical.
Although I could easily do so, I will not clog John’s blog with photo evidence from around the world of poor treatment of the mentally ill, and of the poor. The living standards of many Canadian reservation Indians would be a start, so would the slums of the US, and of course, your own country would not be lacking. One can be selective in reporting about any country.
And this aspect of Saudi society does not disturb the Western world. Rather the self-proclaimed psychiatrists of the West don’t feel ashamed to support it!
What a shining example of your twisting my words, attacking me personally (or any other commentator who unintentionally serves your purpose), and then making a grand, false, overgeneralizing statement with racist and divisive connotations, condemnatory of both the West and Saudi. Only propagandists consistently use these types of argumentation. You seem to be able to imitate them perfectly. And now we expect an appeal to authority (technique no. 3), AKA John in this instance.
Daisy #35–any evidence, references, links for that line of thinking, those conclusions? Any claims to expertise in political science, frequenting the royal family, living in Saudi, relevant peer-reviewed publications?
Sandy #36–thank you. You understood perfectly.
March:16:2010 - 13:50
I don’t think it fair to say that it doesn’t disturb outsiders to see that kind of problem. Rather, outsiders do realize that there aren’t enough psychologists/psychiatrists to go around, that the standard of care in the KSA is not yet up to Western standards. Yeah, it’s not a good time to be seriously mentally disabled in Saudi Arabia, though it’s demonstrably better than 20 years ago.
I don’t think any country (except perhaps the Scandinavian ones) have much of a soap box to stand on, however. I recall the graphic photos in Indian newspapers that followed a fire at an asylum where all the patients (most of whom died) were chained to a post in the middle of their dorm.
March:16:2010 - 13:51
Daisy, I’m afraid that’s just idealistic. Yes, in a perfect world, populated with perfect people, what you say might happen. We’re not in a perfect world and Saudis are no less (and no more) imperfect than anyone else. They just have a different history of getting to where they are today. Until quite recently, society took a distant second place to family. Going by how the media report and how typical Saudis respond, they’re getting there.
March:16:2010 - 14:54
John #38 and #39–Agreed.
March:16:2010 - 22:44
John,
What part of the Saudi society is getting there? That’s the question.
It makes immediate news when it happens in India or in Africa, but it doesn’t make news when it happens in Saudi Arabia – that’s what I have been trying to say all this while. You can immediately talk about India, but not about Saudi Arabia in the same context. Why is it so?
Why is it that arguments of “kindness” and society vs family are forwarded to defended Saudi Arabia’s plight, but it is alright to talk about the poverty of other nations?
If I talks about the poverty of Saudi Arabia, I am using the soapbox, but the people who are talking of the poverty of other Third World countries are not using the soapbox. Why is it so?
Isn’t it because Saudi Arabia has cleverly maneuvered to wipe out all international criticism of itself? Why is it being allowed this luxury when other countries with the same problems are not allowed this luxury?
March:16:2010 - 23:17
I can’t really believe I’m reading this. “Saudi Arabia has cleverly maneuvered to wipe out all international criticism of itself..”?????!!!!
Why don’t you try reading a paper or something??????? There is CONTINUOUS critisism. Some of it more deserved than other- but believe me (I know you won’t) the world has no problem criticising Saudi.
March:16:2010 - 23:42
I read Arab News sites and I have not seen a news feature covering the poverty in Saudi Arabia. It keeps on getting portrayed as the land of wealth – which is a biased picture.
March:16:2010 - 23:58
The international media is the same.
March:17:2010 - 00:20
Not only the news media – why is it that a Slumdog Millionaire can be made about India and not about Saudi Arabia? How will Saudi Arabia take such a portrayal? Will it allow this kind of portrayal?
John,
The only important point is not that poverty exists in India. It’s also important that India allows the international media to talk about it. Saudi Arabia doesn’t allow it.
And the experts on the country go along with this exercise of Saudi Arabia to prevent criticism. They seem to have no problem with it. Will they have no problem if India acquired the same attitude? Why are the indices different for judging different countries in the world?
March:17:2010 - 01:06
First of all, overall poverty isn’t the main issue here. Overall it is a land of wealth. When it “makes the news” in Africa or India it’s usually because there is a famine or some overwhelming crisis. But yes, poverty does exist like it does everywhere in the world to some degree. Some of those poverty pictures were nothing compared to what can be seen in Europe or the US. There is poverty everywhere- it is not a uniquely bad problem in Saudi. What is specific to Saudi’s poverty issues, is often big news. Education, water supply, women’s guardianship issues, population, child support.
In addition to that, poverty itself IS addressed in the media, both local and international. I’ve seen it,it’s easy to find (I just did)but you can’t make anyone read it, if they don’t want to.
Again, some people see what they want to to see, rather than what is.
March:17:2010 - 02:40
Sandy #42 and #46–Agreed.
I do believe that the issue of a lack of jobs in this particular context is related to more complicated factors in Saudi than certain types of poverty, though the 2 overlap.
It seems that other factors like diversification of the economy, willingness to do entry level, or non-professional jobs, patterns of recruitment, use of foreign experts and foreign workers, etc would all be germane to the discussion.
March:17:2010 - 03:29
Sandy,
I know it is there on websites. But it is usually not reported in mainstream media.
The problem is deeper than you may realise. See this information, dated in 2003 (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3412.htm) –
There is no exact official record of the number of people below poverty line in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia owes an international debt of $180 billion.
Unemployed youth there – 8% by official statistics, 13% by private economists, Saudi social scientists – 25%
% of population below poverty line in Saudi Arabia – 20%-30% (compare this with India – 30%)
Please note that these figures are from 2003. More than six years have passed since then.
A reliable current, updated data on Saudi Arabia is not available.
John himself has written posts on this in the past. I don’t know if he forgot about those posts of his –
http://xrdarabia.org/2009/09/page/2/
In fact, John wrote about this blog which I cited above –
http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/07/poverty-in-saudi-arabia/
March:17:2010 - 04:04
John,
I just found out that you posted on Saudi poverty earlier and even posted the blog I cited above. This was before I came here.
Unfortunately there wasn’t much discussion on those posts of yours, eventhough they were significant.
I tried to find a reliable updated data on this topic, but couldn’t find any. The trouble is that they only calculate the national average, without separating different income-groups. This gives an unrealistic figure, because the rich families’ income counter-balances the income of the poor people who are in a significant number, while the rich families control a significant proportion of the national wealth.
This problem is not only in remote areas, but right in the major cities such as in Riyadh and Jeddah.
Besides, you reported a translated piece from Arabic Al-Watan in Arabic, which focuses on this problem.
From this, I think the common Arabs don’t mind talking about this problem in public. The mainstream English media doesn’t focus on it that much because of the way they imagine the Arabs in their minds – this imagination may not be a realistic one.
There is certainly a need to dicuss this deepening problem in Saudi Arabia.
March:17:2010 - 05:20
Contd from above…
This blog reiterates the following features (http://strangerinthisdunya.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/poverty-in-saudi-arabia/) –
1) Saudi Arabia’s unemployment figure is estimated at 9.8%, though researchers suggest 25%
2) Its population below poverty poverty line is 30% – compare this with the figure for India – 25% (CIA World Factbook – http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line)
Incidentally, this source does not have the figure for Saudi Arabia.
March:17:2010 - 06:15
Also compare the figures of population % below poverty line in some other countries –
UAE – 19.5%
Tunisia – 7.4%
Malaysia – 5.1%
Syria – 11.9%
Kazakhstan – 13.8%
Indonesia – 17.8%
Iran – 18%
Israel – 21.6%
Ghana – 28.5%
Philippines – 30% (same as that of Saudi Arabia)
March:17:2010 - 06:18
IF you are going to compare statistics between two countries, they have to be from the same source to be meaningful. I saw several sources that put India’s at 40+% with childhood malnutrition the worst in the world. So I suggest anyone reading this with a real interest, simply google Indian povery and then Saudi Poverty, and it’s quite clear overall there is no comparison at all.
Also misleading is the poverty statistics for Saudi often don’t break down the illegal/foriegn elements. We are talking tens of thousands if not more illegals- who find poverty in Saudi much more survivable than poverty in their own countries. Actual Saudi poor is much less than the overall poor.
I do think that the levels of poverty that exist are unacceptable given the resources of the nation. I think that about most western nations as well, and definately India where caste, and gender inequality are often cited for the sources of their overwhelming problems. Again- google both and read. No real comparison in terms of numbers.
Anyway, it may be that the problem is “deeper” than I may realize- but I imagine I have a FAR more accurate grasp of it than you do, because I am here, because I have no objections to looking at a variety of sources for info- and mostly because I do not have a reason to believe one thing over another, unlike some, who only see, or give credence to their biases and their preconcieved notions of how things are.
March:17:2010 - 06:43
I would love the source for the 180 billion in debt. The closest thing I can find is the current economic crunch- tied into the world situation where 18.3 billion of the debt is held internationally, and that 18.3 is in SR not in dollers.
“International lenders reportedly hold SR18.3 billion ($4.88billion) of the total debt held by AHAB and Saad. The rest is held by Gulf and Middle East firms, mostly banks but holding companies are also reportedly affected.”
If you are refering to something else- I’m betting it’s way outdated. Here’s a good overview of the recent economic trends.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1898255,00.html
In order to address any issue, in any country, it is important to get an accurate idea of what is REALLY going on, and the complexities as well. Collecting facts that suit your opinions, and weaving them together to suit how you think things are, will not provide a basis for offering any meaningful solutions.
March:17:2010 - 06:50
Sandy,
Yes. The point is that Saudi Arabia hasn’t provided reliable statistics that the CIA can document, so we have to look at other sources for KSA – this link cites the findings of a Saudi university professor who is an expert on the topic.
Another point is that the poverty of India is not a debatable question – it goes without saying that India is amongst the poor countries in the world. The same CIA link says that 41% of the world’s poor live in India – partly because of its exploding population and partly because of other socio-economic reasons.
The main argument here is about whether the poverty of Saudi Arabia is a deepening problem. The findings of the research suggests that it is so and this is more worrying because the world’s attention is not focused on it.
I gave the figures for India and other poor countries (except Israel) only to show the comparison. The figures for India vary greatly in different sources, hence I gave the figures for other countries as well.
I said that considering the wealth that Saudi Arabia gets, poverty should not be a problem there. The fact that despite this wealth if its poverty is increasing, it is a worrying aspect. This is because a large part of this wealth is controlled by the small group of elite class there, leaving a large section of the population poor. You live there but I don’t know how much you mix with the common population of different parts of Saudi Arabia – in cities and in remote areas. Sometimes it’s not possible to know everything about a country even if one lives there, unless one does proper research about it.
And the figures for KSA’s poverty are cited by Saudi experts who do research on this problem.
March:17:2010 - 07:05
Post 54 makes a lot of good points and is quite reasonable except that what your are now stating as the main argument has totally changed. The main arguments that you bought up previously were that you couldn’t understand why Saudi poverty doesn’t get the press coverage of African and Indian poverty, and that,
“Saudi Arabia has cleverly maneuvered to wipe out all international criticism of itself..”
Perhaps if you had begun as you ended, there would be no need for all the in-between bickering. You switched the main point as soon as your other main point could no longer be substantiated and it’s a technique you use often when discussing things.
March:17:2010 - 07:19
Please read the #54 again – I have said there too that the world’s attention is not focused on the deepening poverty of Saudi Arabia (3rd paragraph). Perhaps I have said it differently here.
Here is another data from the CIA about external debt of Saudi Arabia, giving different figures though – https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html
It’s still more than the Time link.
The figures from saudi Arabia itself are not available.
March:17:2010 - 07:48
Perhaps it’s because Saudi Arabia’s poverty problem affects only itself? Poor Saudis aren’t lining up to emigrate, nor do they form masses of illegal workers elsewhere–becoming somebody else’s problem. Perhaps it’s because they do not have people like Gandhi or Mother Theresa calling international attention to the plight of the poor? Perhaps because the Saudis, in the UN or other international fora, don’t seek foreign aid to relieve poverty?
Perhaps because international visitors don’t see that poverty as they don’t pass through slums and bidonville and favelas in the general course of their business? There are beggars on the streets, but whether they’re Saudi or not, they tend to not ‘look like Saudis’ for the most part; they look African or S. Asian or Afghan.
For all the reasons above, the Saudis have kept Saudi poverty out of the international eye. Not by clever PR stunts, but by not making their poverty issues international issues. By not calling attention to the issue, the issue is, largely, invisible. You read about it in the Saudi media because it’s a local issue on several levels–moral, religious, immigration, over-stayers, misuse of religious visas, child corruption, etc.–but not an international one.
March:17:2010 - 07:50
There are plentiful articles on the subject, particularly since King Abdullah made poverty a national priority. You can find articles about beggars on the streets, lack of housing, lack of social support (as the case of the woman made much of in the comments), child marriages, etc. Perhaps they’re not front-page articles, but they’re certainly being printed.
March:17:2010 - 08:06
John,
It’s not the poor beggars of India who are emigrating to the West – it’s the students who get accepted into higher education or high-skiled workers or business investors. There are illegal immigrants too, but they don’t form the bulk of the Indian emigrants.
And please don’t say that the host countries haven’t gained from the skilled workers or the business people emigrating there.
Besides, Indian emigrants at least don’t go around thrusting their orthodox religion down the throats of the host population like some other emigrants do, under the influence of Saudi Islam.
Saudis don’t have to emigrate anywhere to create problems for the world – they are capable of staying in their country and creating problems for the whole world.
The beggars don’t have the potential to emigrate anywhere.
You of course know this.
It’s high time Saudi Arabia gets a Gandhi or a Mother Teresa for itself.
March:17:2010 - 08:09
Foreign media arent’ prevented from reporting on poverty in Saudi Arabia: France, UAE, Saudi and pan-Arab media, US. The government doesn’t block YouTube posting on the issue.
Perhaps the story doesn’t receive the coverage it deserves, but it’s covered. Perhaps, too, the fact that, according to the UNDP, Saudi Arabia only has 1.63% of its population in dire poverty that it gets less coverage than countries with much higher rates.
March:17:2010 - 08:15
All of those are important factors. Don’t forget, too, that better than 50% of the population is largely excluded from the workforce!
March:17:2010 - 08:17
Thank you for your 57,58 and 60.
Also, the very poor from Mexico immigrate illegally to the US, from Eastern Europe to Western Europe and from Africa, Afghanistan, the Indian sub continent etc to Saudi Arabia.
Most of the beggers in my area of town are Eithiopian/Eritran, Somali and Afghani. In the US, many Mexicans.
March:17:2010 - 08:29
What Sandy and John said.
Indian immigration to Canada represents all classes of Indian society except for the too impoverished to travel. This varies as the Canadian government varies its priorities for immigration for all, eg recently prefer professionals over skilled or unskilled labour except in restricted domains. Thus the immigration population is comprised of people who were doing well there but chose to leave for better opportunities for themselves or family here, as well as people who were not doing well there, and are struggling here but benefit from greater opportunities, for their children mostly. Some flounder on social assistance but most eventually do well. Some are escaping ethnic violence, and discrimination in their Indian homeland, ethnic, religious, racial, caste, and economic.
As I pointed out in my post,”School Yards, Plus ça change…: Forms of Discrimination“, they and other South Asian immigrants are here in sufficient numbers that a Canadian school can be comprised of 90% one specific ethnic South Asian population, and they have been here long enough to have community members make up 20% of the teaching staff (and 1/3 of the office staff).
A few of the South Asians I have met here worked in Saudi first “as an easy place to get a job” before coming here. It provided a stepping stone on their immigration path to better opportunities in different countries. Some went home in between and either couldn’t get decent work or didn’t like the lifestyle. Some no doubt will go to the promised land, aka, the USA. A few are professionals (Indian doctors have an admirable capacity to obtain and maintain medical licenses around the world, and have “flying practices”, ie ones in more than one country at once), most are not, or aren’t any longer having lost credentialing bids, or never acquiring an education/employment match. Those are mainly in the service industry here.