While the King Abdullah University of Science & Technology (KAUST) continues to roil Saudi society with its policy of co-education, women-only universities continue to develop. Arab News reports on the progress on constructing a new campus for Noura University, now being built in Riyadh. The campus will consolidate some 40 colleges under one roof.
What’s interesting is that when he was offered the opportunity to have the new university named after him, King Abdullah demurred, instead choosing the name of Princess Noura, beloved sister of the country’s founder King Abdulaziz. Histories, the ones that don’t make it into Saudi textbooks, relay that Abdulaziz relied on his sister for sound council and took great pride in her. He even went so far as to transgress a social taboo and referred to her in public by her name. Contemporary, educated, young Saudis still have problems in uttering the names of the women in their families in public.
One would never know it from published materials, but there is an alternative history in Saudi Arabia, one that demonstrates the power of Saudi women within families. The history is hidden by Saudis because of a culture that schizophrenically blends honor and shame toward women, hiding them from public view. It’s hidden by non-Saudis because of the stereotype of oppressed women. Saudi women are ‘oppressed’ in many regards from a Western viewpoint and some certainly do suffer from oppression at the hands of conservative and tribal practices. But within families, many Saudi women exert a surprising level of power.
Also noteworthy, the article says that 66% of Saudi university students are women.
Noura University, a landmark dedicated to a beloved aunt
SAEED AL-KHOTANI | ARAB NEWSRIYADH: Round-the-clock construction work has been taking place near King Khalid International Airport in Riyadh for the last few months.
On a 94-square kilometer-site, the new campus of the Princess Noura bint Abdul Rahman University is being built. It will be one of the largest higher education institutions for women in the world.
It is really hard for anyone not to notice the scaffolding, cranes, loaded trucks and intense activity at the site.
The workers were meant to have met a 2010 deadline, but this has now been pushed back to sometime next year.
…
The women at Noura University might have cause to celebrate, those at Umm Al-Qura University in Mecca are not quite so happy. Saudi Gazette/Okaz report that crowding at that university’s facilities is getting unacceptable. Dorm rooms built for four students’ occupancy will soon see nine packed into the rooms, at least on a temporary basis. The women also complain that their protests to university officials results in a ‘shut up and accept it’ rebuke, with threats of ‘serious action’ if they don’t shut up.
9 students per room at Umm Al-Qura women’s hostel
Hatim Al-MasoudiMAKKAH – Over 70 female students are up in arms over a decision by the Umm Al-Qura University hostel authorities to increase the number of students from four to nine in a room of five square meters.
The decision has been taken because the university wants to accommodate medical students at the University’s Hostel in the Al-Nozha District situated in the center of the city.
The Housing Deanship has threatened to punish any student who fails to comply with the decision, the students said.
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March:13:2010 - 10:52
John, this is a very balanced post, giving the positive as well as the negative sides of the Saudi women at the university. It is true that in traditional societies women may not go out to do a job but they are quite powerful within the family space. It’s also true that the women – Western as well as non-Western – who go out to do a job may not have the decision-making power in their family.
March:13:2010 - 12:59
My objection to these type of articles hyping “power behind the scenes in the family” is that it hides the basic fact– that the so-called power of these women is entirely at mercy of their menfolk. That a mother, wife, sister has any power at all is because the father, husband, or brother has chosen to acknowledge it. It can be taken away with the same ease at it given when their male protector is no longer there. Today, your husband gives you the complete control over everything. Tomorrow, if he dies, you are at the mercy of your next male guardian who may starve you of bare necessities without any opposition. That is not power, it is the illusion of power.
March:13:2010 - 13:40
I don’t mean to suggest that Saudi women are in the driver’s seat. Far from it.
Rather, I mean that while Saudi women can be found in a position of abject subjugation to males, it is also true that many Saudi women are cherished and respected by the males in their families. An example is indeed Pr. Noura whom, by all accounts I’ve read, was held in deep esteem by her brother the King. He actively sought her opinion, it is reported, on many political matters. That he cared very deeply for her wellbeing and happiness is also not credibly doubted.
All people, to greater or lesser extent, depend on those upon whom they depend–a tautology. Saudi society–and Arab culture in general–make women more dependent on males than do many other societies. Absolutely true. But within those relationships, subject to the wide array of variation that all relationships entail, most Saudi men do not abuse the women in their lives. Most of the Saudi men I know, for instance, call their mothers weekly, if not daily, when they travel outside the Kingdom. That’s not an indication of opprobrious power-wielding or power-sharing. Brothers do tend to look out for their sisters; uncles for their nieces.
The Saudi media finds it newsworthy, in fact, to point out cases where this does not pertain. That’s because the stories are outside what is considered normal, hence newsworthy.
Would I want to be a woman in Saudi Arabia? Only if I got to choose my relations, I suppose. But then, that’s how I’d choose to be a Saudi male, too!
March:13:2010 - 15:48
Great post. I know a guy who told me that Saudis are late for everything except when their mothers tell them to be somewhere at a certain time. It reminds me of the “Virgin Mother” thing in Latin Catholicism, which probably has its roots in this concept that the mother reigns supreme in the household. I agree that much of this is hidden by the social tradition of not making public women’s names and roles in the family.
“hat the so-called power of these women is entirely at mercy of their menfolk. That a mother, wife, sister has any power at all is because the father, husband, or brother has chosen to acknowledge it”
I understand what you’re saying but I do not agree completely. If you set aside abusive relationships by psychotic men, I find that the matriarchal aspect inside average families is often under-estimated. I think Arab men are in a way beholden to the wishes of the matriarch inside the home.
A husband is in many ways a slave to the fact that the children will always have a very deep and profound tie to their blood mothers. I think in most cases a son would kill his father to protect his mother. This may be universal, but it is also certainly very strong in Arab society. So the father has to be very conscious of the wishes of his spouse and his mother.
Please note: This is in no way a defend of the state creating stupid “custody” and nationality laws that oppress women. Nor should this be considered a justification for deny the state’s right to invade the privacy of the home to rescue people from abusive relatives.
March:13:2010 - 16:30
What a wonderful post, highlighting the well-known secret of women’s advances in Saudi through education, and having roles of influence with high placed men, as well as some achieving professionally themselves. It is so fitting this university be named after Princess Nourah.
Daisy– It’s also true that the women – Western as well as non-Western – who go out to do a job may not have the decision-making power in their family. Any evidence for that?
It is not my experience in either Western or non-Western including Muslim Arab cultures, South Asian ones of any religion, East Asian ones, pr African ones that this holds true. Educated, career, and working women are usually held in high esteem by their families and their counsel is saught on family and other matters.
In fact, my husband, prior to our marriage, pointed out the high status and decision-making power his female cousin has by virtue of being a doctor. The same holds true for the other women in the family who are teachers, journalists, office workers, or physicians.
John–A Moroccan psychiatrist specialized in child and family psychiatry once told me that the Arab mother is like the Italian mother, she is the true decision maker behind the scenes. The difference is that everyone in Italy acknowledges that this is a true aspect of the culture, whereas, at least publicly Arabs pretend it is not.
Women’s rights elsewhere have proceeded in a similar fashion…from wielding public power based in family power and backed by the men in the family to eventually a greater ability to acquire power in the public sphere independent of this support formally, but still benefiting from their family support as all who have that do.
Anonymous–excellent comment. Thanks!
March:13:2010 - 16:48
It is not my experience in either Western or non-Western including Muslim Arab cultures, South Asian ones of any religion, East Asian ones, pr African ones that this holds true. Educated, career, and working women are usually held in high esteem by their families and their counsel is saught on family and other matters.
Good Lord Chiara! You must have extraordinarily positive experiences! As a South Asian, I see plenty of examples daily in my family and friends circle where “educated, career, and working women” are held in “high esteem” by their families solely for the pay check they bring in — as long as they hand over their entire paycheck to their husband and forget their “education, career, and work” as soon as they step in through the door. All families like the extra paycheck, few give credit to the women. Right now, I am helping a woman I have known for a long time through a divorce. Her fault? She would not give her paycheck to her husband and insisted on keeping custody of her jewelry. In the year 2010! She is kicked out because of that by her husband and mother-in-law.
Nothing personal, but honestly, I find it a little strange when men find it necessary to point out the high regard women are held in their family. I get a lot of that from my fellow South Asians. My reaction is, if you feel it is so extraordinary that you need to point it out, then we are on different planes.
March:13:2010 - 16:55
As a Muslim, woman and long time resident of Saudi- I agree with everything OlivetheOil has written here.
Any woman can be stopped at any time by her “guardian”. And it happens and there is no recourse for the woman in question.
March:13:2010 - 17:06
Olivetheoil–I also know of the negative experiences but they are the exception, including: a Pakistani MBA who is suffering from a severe depression because her MIL won’t let her work, ie forces her husband to make her stay home and to look after her MIL; a Moroccan woman who took a job and her husband made a point of rolling her salary into a cigar and smoking it in front of family and friends; a man who agreed in his Islamic marriage contract to support his high-school student wife’s future studies knowing that meant at least a BSc but redirected her to esthetician school; and I could go on.
However, most of those I know are in much healthier family relationships, are prized for their accomplishments, and are often in dual career marriages.
The most common scenario of a failure of appreciation is an uneducated family or an extremely conservative one, ie not the normal level of conservatism for the culture.
In my experience men feel the need to point this out to compensate for common misperceptions about the culture, or the difference between law and social realities. That was certainly true of the elderly South Asian man who seemed delighted that I sat next to him on the bus. He chatted and when he found out I was a physician he told me I should be driving a car, but accepted that I preferred the bus for a number of reasons. He felt compelled to tell me that so much was said in the news that was negative about his culture’s attitudes towards women, and wanted me to know that they were well-respected culturally (I realize this can be in a narrow traditional sense) and that his daughters and granddaughters were all educated.
There is also the story ie a true one, reported on in Canada, of a Indian-Canadian obgyn who returned to India for a family wedding and to try to heal a family rift about inheritance from her father after his death a few years previously. She was trying to mediate between oldest and youngest brothers, and offered that instead of following current Indian laws of inheritance, if her older brother would allow the younger one his share, she and her sister would renounce theirs, ie following traditional practice. He waited til her son returned to Canada and then had her killed.
Surely we aren’t to think that this is normal Indian family behaviour? Yet that type of story which does make the news would certainly make someone like my elderly bus companion feel compelled to correct any false impression a non-Indian Canadian might have of his culture.
March:13:2010 - 17:10
Sandy–I think we all agree that the laws in Saudi give men inordinate powers that they don’t have elsewhere despite male dominance to greater and lesser degrees in all societies. That only means that the women are succeeding because of the men’s support, and that at some point for women to have more power, the men with the power to change the laws will have to do so. The same happened in the US with women’s and civil rights. White men had to choose to exercise their power to enfranchise others, and they did.
March:13:2010 - 17:25
Surely we aren’t to think that this is normal Indian family behaviour?
As an Indian, it’s not a question of what you think, it’s what is the reality. Pardon this assumption, but I get the feeling you are not an Indian but see it from the point of view as an outsider who has not had to deal with internal dynamics but sees the positive facade presented.
“if her older brother would allow the younger one his share, she and her sister would renounce theirs, i.e. following traditional practice.”
And you fail to see how humiliating it is to have “traditional practice” used to justify the fact sister should beg to be reduced to a second class family member just to secure what is by right a younger siblings. The woman should have sued the pants of her older brother and secured her younger brother his rights. I have dealt a lot with Indian courts and I have great faith in their essential fairness (despite some idiots, the Judges are usually a decent lot). That she instead succumbed to social pressure and had to resort to humiliating herself is painful to read about.
March:13:2010 - 18:54
Olivetheoil–I am not Indian but I treat Indians in therapy. Believe me, the positive façade is broken. I also have colleagues/friends who are Indian, and some research projects that involve elements of Indian society. I am not saying that what I think is important; it seems that her children and husband object to her murder and don’t find it normal. They do want justice to be served. Or are you saying that it is the norm in Indian families for a brother to have his sister killed because of inheritance issues? Not even a common enough occurrence, but the norm.
I do appreciate the humiliation, and the desperation in her offer. I summarized what has been well reported in the news, and described by her son. It is painful for anyone to read. The more so because she was doing her best to support a younger brother who actually needed the money whereas she and her sisters agreed that they were well enough established in life to forego it in the interest of family harmony.
It is particularly tragic that she and they did so much to attempt to appease and older brother who had no sense of decency let alone family. It is not my place to say for her whether she should have gone to court over this or not. Many in any culture would want to spare themselves the pain of a court case which would further rent the family, and cause public humiliation.
Since her murder was not adequately dealt with by the Indian courts by the estimation of her son and her husband, there is a website about the case:
Please help us find justice for Dr Asha Goel
If you are interested you may also wish to research the case under her name and her murder in Mumbai.
March:13:2010 - 20:25
Olivetheoil is right about many Indian men not only holding their wife in high regard because of the income she earns, but they actually seek such marriages because of the salary the woman earns – this behaviour cuts across religions.
I have also seen many housewives who don’t earn but they really make all the decision – be it related to children, management of property or any other financial or legal matter, despite the fact that they are not earning any money themselves. I guess the Saudi families John is talking about are exact parallels of such Indian cases.
I have also seen Western families living in the West where the wife earns money but it’s the husband who is the final decision-maker, eventhough she doesn’t actually give her money to her husband.
I have also come across scores of Western women who change their religion and lifestyle after marriage according to the preferences of their husband. There are many Indian women who wouldn’t do that.
March:13:2010 - 21:04
Daisy–to summarize then, you believe Western women are more dominated by their husbands than Indian women? I sincerely doubt that the preponderance of Western women change their religion to accommodate their husband. The Saudi blogosphere has an unusually high number of converts so it is not representative in that regard. Most interfaith couples in the West marry according to the woman’s religion. Islamic marriages are unique in this regard because the marriage is not valid for a Muslim, or at least not legal in a Muslim majority country if there is not an Islamic marriage–this does not mean the woman converts though.
I am certainly aware that in Indian marriages, even those which are love matches rather than arranged, socio-economic status, and educational levels of the prospective spouses and their families are important considerations. I also had a patient who charged his sisters with the task of finding him a doctor to marry. They did, and he did, but regretted that she was not a lot younger than him (in fact a few years older). He wishes he had specified a very young doctor–ie still a doctor. On the other hand another Indian patient, a female engineer doing graduate work, complained that she was all but unmarriageable, being in a “male profession”, and out earning prospective beaux. My Canadian-Indian friend and colleague who wants to specialize in psychiatry finds himself up against his wife’s prejudices, more entrenched because she is recently arrived from India (according to him), that he should be a surgeon, ie choose more respectable and prestigious specialty, and one that earns more.
So there we have it, we all have experiences of various marriage combinations, and somehow the powerful Saudi women are lost in South Asia.
I still find that this post emphasizes the positives, and a start toward building something for the future. Even the disgruntled at Umm Al-Qura University are disgruntled due to overcrowding because of high enrollment, including in the medical faculty. Let’s hope the powers that be (most likely men) find a short and long term solution for them.
March:13:2010 - 22:19
Or are you saying that it is the norm in Indian families for a brother to have his sister killed because of inheritance issues? Not even a common enough occurrence, but the norm.
If you want to parse phrases, I am saying that it is still unfortunately the norm for Indian women, regardless of education, to be treated as second class citizens within the family. That treatment may go to extremes, like killing them, or more regularly, denying them their equal rights and ignoring their grievances. There are many ways of destroying a woman. Whether it is through a hitman or through systematic denial of their rights to an independent existence.
I recognize that you see a subset of successful professional South Asians who have built a life in Canada and are privy to their world. What I am saying is that Indian women like me who have lived both in India and the West and know for personal experience what it is to be an Indian woman–whether an educated successful professional living in the West or an uneducated village woman living in a rural Indian village–have a different understanding and would find a lot to disagree with your perspective on our lives.
March:13:2010 - 23:04
Olivetheoil–no phrases were parsed. I do think that one must be careful about statements about something so dramatic as the extremes of killing, while not denying that Indian culture is patriarchal and more patriarchal than some others.
I make no claims to have a perspective on Indian lives that anyone should be required to agree with. However, just for your complete information, some of the research work I do is directly related to the uneducated rural village women, and I appreciate that their lot is unenviable to say the least. Let us not mention as truly being off topic here the statistics on female feticide which directly correlate with poverty, rural, and traditional communities by region in India (and are the highest in the world) or the high use by Indians of sperm sorting techniques to get baby boys from the start. In fact, they make up 90% of the clientele of a major clinic that does this type of work in a major Canadian city, according to its Indian owner.
While I see educated Indians in my practice, as you well know, one generation back the women have no high school diploma and are married by arranged marriages to men who have done graduate studies. Their lives are no less tradition for this. As I see the ones who are younger, they have the typical struggles of 2nd generation immigrants accommodating between 2 cultures as well as 2 generations, and dealing with their own prejudices and beliefs as they negotiate their young adulthood. I also see the newly arrived graduate students and their families; and the newly arrived immigrants who can’t find a job even with IT degrees and experience and head back, rather than continue to work as the night doorman in a condo building. The culture shock of being away from family supports, both emotional and extended familial economic structures is palpable, let alone all the other differences between Indian society and that of Canada.
Again, I make no particular claims to knowledge except that where I have specific expertise, which includes acknowledging that my perspective by definition is not that of an insider.
It would be nice to return the thread to Saudi women, as it is after all the topic of the post, and the blog.
March:14:2010 - 09:29
as you well know, one generation back the women have no high school diploma and are married by arranged marriages to men who have done graduate studies
I would never have guessed….especially since most women in my mother’s generation (including my mother) in my family and most of the mothers of my friends were graduates or held advanced professional degrees. And these women are in their late 60s now at the very least.
I think you made a very good and applicable point about being cautious about generalizations based on limited knowledge.
It would be nice to return the thread to Saudi women, as it is after all the topic of the post, and the blog.
Again it’s a matter of perspective. I think Saudi (Middle Eastern women in general) and South Asian women have a lot in common to discuss in terms of finding their places and identities within patriarchal societies and in figuring out how to assert their legal rights without surrendering to social pressures. I have come to believe that Asian Feminism as a movement needs to find a voice distinct from Western Feminism and I do believe that more, not less, discussion to identify what problems we have in common will help.
A matter of opinion, as I noted before.
March:14:2010 - 13:07
Olivetheoil–I congratulate the women in your family. In my practice the 20-30 year olds I see often describe the family constellation that I described. I didn’t say all, and I am aware there is diversity amongst South Asians. That was my point after you projected that I seemed to know only professionals.
I really think you are searching for a problem with me for things I have not said and don’t believe. I am merely sharing what experiences I do have and know about in the face of the implication that I know nothing. Not true, nor do I claim to know everything. I am hardly one of the overgeneralization offenders on this blog.
I do agree that up to a point there are commonalities in the experiences of Saudi and South Asian women, but this is a blog about Saudi and America, and it is tiresome to have every topic turned into a debate about South Asia for those of us here because it is a blog about Saudi, and who know how to find English language blogs about South Asia if we wanted.
It is particularly tiresome to have such a relentlessly narrow image of South Asia being portrayed in the comments here. If this really is to be turned in to a blog for Saudi and South Asian feminists to confer on negotiating Eastern patriarchies then I would hope the contributions would be of a higher quality on this new blog purpose.
Please do not presume to know, or imply what I believe about feminisms. If you bothered to ask instead of project, you might be surprised, or disappointed–a matter of perspective of course.
I sincerely hope that John does not allow his blog to have its purpose derailed in such a manner. There is enough sending each thread south to South Asia as it is. It is way beyond the point of useful comparative paradigms, and usually has the same format, which is unenlightening to say the least. I would suggest that there are other blogs where the purpose of comparing Asian feminisms would be better served.
March:14:2010 - 13:29
Hi olivetheoil I always appreciate your commentary.
March:14:2010 - 13:39
It is way beyond the point of useful comparative paradigms, and usually has the same format, which is unenlightening to say the least. I would suggest that there are other blogs where the purpose of comparing Asian feminisms would be better served.
Chiara: I am not trying to enlighten you. I am merely expressing my opinion. If you find my postings contentious or not in keeping with your views of what is appropriate for this blog, that is unfortunate but it’s not going to affect my opinions or expressions here.
March:14:2010 - 13:42
Hi Sparky,
Thanks! No worries:) It’s great to be here.
March:14:2010 - 15:21
Olivetheoil–the comment was not about your commenting patterns which are relatively new here. Unlike others, I don’t presume to direct other commentators on John’s blog on how to behave, or inform them of their wrongness on Saudi matters, etc. I have no intention of trying to affect your opinions or expressions here. I don’t look to this blog or your commentary to be enlightened about South Asian matters. I have far better resources on those particular topics, which are at best a comparative issue here.
March:14:2010 - 21:36
Well, this is John’s blog and as long as John is allowing the comment whether on South Asia or on any other part of the world, it’s not the business of other commentators to obstruct the flow of comments by talking about on what topic others should comment. Commentators don’t own this blog and they should not tell others what they should write.
Besides these same commentator don’t mind commenting about their own country – which is not the US. Just because they live in the West doesn’t mean they can comment on their country which is not the US and tell non-Western people not to comment on South Asia or any other region.
If such commentators don’t like these comments, they need not respond to them. No one has forced them to respond to these comments.
John hasn’t expressed his displeasure – he even takes part in these discussions, so the commentators are no one to tell others what they should do as if everyone is their slave.
Thanks, Sparky.
Olivetheoil is right – there are lots of similarities between South Asia and Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, there are no similarities between the Western countries and Saudi Arabia.
March:14:2010 - 22:56
Daisy–why the ongoing pretense that you are not talking about me and to me? Do you not realize that your whole comment is telling me as a commentator how to behave on this blog? Do you forget how many times you tell John what to write on, to re-open comments on a thread, to comment on something you have introduced here which may or may not be anything more than tangentially related to the topic at hand.
Have you not read the purpose statement of this blog?
This blog’s purpose is to comment, knowledgeably, about Saudi Arabia, from an American perspective. It’s not about Saudi-bashing, nor is it an apologia for the country. Rather, it’s an effort to put that country into context.
Into context includes other countries than America AKA the USA but does not require that threads leave Saudi entirely to be devoted to South Asian debates as they have so many times.
I hardly think my references to relevant Canadian perspectives come anywhere near your insistence on your particular South Asian ones.
…tell non-Western people not to comment on South Asia or any other region.
Don’t try to frame this in racist terms, and I have never told people not to comment on South Asia or any other region. I have only lamented that the same repetitious comment is made over and over about your personal South Asian perspective on Saudi as the root of all evil.
If such commentators don’t like these comments, they need not respond to them. No one has forced them to respond to these comments.
If your comments didn’t include such blatant misconceptions and over-generalizations as well as distortions of my comments and obvious personal attacks against me I would be happy to ignore them. Not to mention the attempts to get people to gang up against me. Perhaps you are confusing this blog with another of your favourites where such behaviour is common.
John hasn’t expressed his displeasure – he even takes part in these discussions, so the commentators are no one to tell others what they should do as if everyone is their slave.
John also redirects the threads back to the topic–usually admirably subtly. I am now not only a racist by a slaver? Do you not perceive the gratuitousness of such an accusation–passive aggressive though it is?
Olivetheoil is right – there are lots of similarities between South Asia and Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, there are no similarities between the Western countries and Saudi Arabia.
Seriously? Shouldn’t you then start or frequent a blog on Saudi-South Asian similarities? Doesn’t this dramatic statement negate the interest in commenting from an American perspective on Saudi Arabia, ie the purpose of this blog?
This is by no means to be misconstrued by you as asking you not to comment here. I would simply appreciate it if you didn’t distort my words and attack me personally while doing it. As I have said before, it would also be nice if you could come up with some evidence occasionally to support your dramatic, confident, and extreme statements on all things Saudi/Arab/Muslim.
March:15:2010 - 01:06
A commentator who oversteps her line does not deserve any responses.
March:15:2010 - 07:34
Daisy–You mean yourself? I shouldn’t be responding to you? Or are you still pretending that the comments where you clearly reference mine, distort my words to make spurious claims, or absorb them as your own, and make personal attacks calling me a racist, a slaver, and any number of other false accusations should not be addressed by me?
No better reply than this? I have a line not to cross and you don’t?
Seriously, don’t expect me to have others who may not know me be misled by your projections and issues about me. I don’t respond to your comments which are just hortatory, or telling John yet again what to comment on, how he or other commentators are wrong, or that once again South Asia would be perfect if it weren’t for the evil Saudi influence. They are so frequent it would be a waste of time. I do and will respond to obviously misrepresentations of my comments and myself as a commentator.
Btw you weren’t even involved in the discussion which you so rudely interrupted with your comment #22. You still want anyone to believe that you don’t respond to me just because you don’t name me?
March:15:2010 - 08:38
John,
This is a public space where everyone can comment to a conversation going on. Hence, I don’t see why a commentator who is not the owner of this blog should tell others what to comment and what not to comment and when to comment and when not to comment, especially when they themselves are rudely interrupting other people’s conversation all the time.
March:15:2010 - 09:13
Daisy–I agree, except that you have just described your own behaviour.
March:15:2010 - 10:45
Yes, it’s my blog. I open comments to all because I’m interested in what people have to say, but also to improve my knowledge of things Saudi–directly or indirectly. I find it often useful to see discussion of how other countries and cultures deal with issues of concern to Saudi Arabia. This is something that commenters provide. Perhaps to the disadvantage of other readers, I’m interested in very many things.
I expect a certain level of civility in comments. Criticism of other commenters–direct or oblique–is not called for; it’s their arguments that are open to questioning. Ad hominem attacks aren’t welcomed. Besides being a logical fallacy, they’re annoying in their own right.
I would like to suggest that if a reader finds the comments of a particular person to be annoying, then simply skip over that person’s comments. There’s no need to answer, refute, destroy every argument with which one disagrees. Nobody ever–ever–’wins’ an argument on the Internet. And oh, there are so many bad arguments being made! Life is too short for that.
It is perfectly acceptable to read a comment and say to oneself, ‘My, what a stupid argument!’ or even, ‘My, what an ass!’ There’s no need to plunge in to demonstrate (to one’s own satisfaction) that the other might be an ass making a poor argument. Trust the judgment of other readers to reach their own conclusions about the validity of an argument.
If there’s a factual error you (any reader) believe another has made, then do feel free to point out (preferably with good links) the error. If it’s a matter of interpretation, then sure, go ahead and state how you think a given interpretation is errant. Don’t assume bad intentions on the part of someone with home you’re disagreeing. Give them the benefit of the doubt.
But, as noted above, if someone is really getting up your nose, then just skip over the comments or commenter you find objectionable.
I offer the same council to those who keep going to websites that offend them. If it’s bothersome, then why go back? I, personally, go to many websites I find disagreeable, if only to see what ‘the other side’ is saying. Often, what I read is below moronic, but it’s what at least some people believe. I find that useful information, though I know full well that were I to argue against the ill-founded ‘points’, I’d be doing it forever and to no useful purpose. As in any social gathering, there are going to be people one likes and those whom one dislikes. We all learn how to deal with that in the real world. Dealing with it in an Internet-mediated virtual world isn’t all that different.
I’ll close with the words of Martin Luther: “”I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”
March:15:2010 - 12:07
John–thank you for weighing in on this. I certainly agree with ignoring the comments of certain commentators. Some I just skim read in case they say something substantive and worthwhile (it happens even among those whose comments I don’t normally find worth much to my reading interests).
As I stated on the comment policy on my own blog, I think everyone is welcome to comment (and on any blog in my opinion) no matter their level of knowledge, experience of the topic, or language skill.
I agree that personal attacks, ad hominem arguments and thinking one will convert the inconvertible are foolhardy behaviours at best and toxic to a blog at worst. Also as I have stated in comments here, I do find it necessary to comment on the obvious though oblique distortions of my arguments (disagreeing with me is fine, just represent my argument correctly or ask me about it is my philosophy) and personal attacks against me. In my experience elsewhere these can fester to discredit a commentator, especially among casual readers. One told me in an email that based on the attacks against another one on a different blog she did believed that person was as evil and erroneous as she was portrayed to be–to her credit she finally checked that person’s blog and learned the truth. However, she wouldn’t have if she hadn’t been tipped off by something we were discussing on a related but different issue.
Aside from that type of comment, I am happy to, and do, skim over reems of discussion I find pointless or not of interest to me. Given that I have a seeming wide capacity for lateral thinking, it has to be both far off the topic of a thread, and far out of my various interests.
I agree about the mystery of frequenting a blog one hates, which is one of the issues I raised in my blogging and ethics posts. I may casually drop in to find out if the content and tone are the same or what the other side thinks, but never comment on blogs I don’t respect.
The only thing more fruitless, in my experience of the blogosphere, than trying to convince the inconvertible is to try to derail a blog owner’s blog. It has been done–according to one blog acquaintance who eventually closed the blog in question, took a hiatus, and started another one–but it is rare and self-defeating if one likes the blog overall.
Thanks again for weighing in here. As you know I appreciate your blog and your comments–even when we disagree!
March:16:2010 - 13:59
One of the most powerful women in Saudi history has not been
mentioned here, Asa as Sudeiri, favorite wife (and cousin) of Abdulaziz and mother of the powerful Sudeiri Seven. As of 1981 she was reputed to be the most poweful person in the country as her seven sons vied with each other for her favor. Of course this confirms that in extreme partriarchical societies, the route to power for a woman is to have sway over a powerful man, or as in the case of Asa as Sudeiri, a whole bunch of poweful men competing for one’s favor.
March:16:2010 - 22:20
is confirms that in extreme partriarchical societies, the route to power for a woman is to have sway over a powerful man
Yep. If power is the right term to use in this context.
March:16:2010 - 22:25
LOL!
March:16:2010 - 23:48
Chiara,
I want to make this clear that your comments addressed to me are not going to get any response from me.
Hence, please don’t waste your time and energy writing comments addressed to me.
I do not want to have any kind of communication with you.
March:17:2010 - 02:18
Daisy #33–If you don’t want any comments addressed to you then stop so obviously twisting my words and attacking me personally while pretending not to address me. I will continue to address these comments with your name and the # of the comment to clarify distortions for readers who might otherwise be misled about what I have said and who I am.
It really is very simple if you wish not to have any communication with me then don’t attack me and my ideas, and especially don’t distort who I am and what I say. You cannot expect to comment here as much as you do and in such a way and have me ignore it. Your other comments which I disagree with I often do just let slide. On topics of interest to me I have no problem in expending the necessary effort to put together what I believe to be an accurate statement, and to label my own opinion where it is opinion.
Btw my email address is chiaraazlinquestion AT yahoo.com if you feel you have something to say that is off topic of a thread, like your above comment. I appreciate that it doesn’t get you the same public exposure but it might clog John’s blog less with this type of comment which must be boring for all to have to read or skip over.
March:17:2010 - 03:30
And don’t keep on jumping into my conversations with other people either.
When I feel you deserve to be contactedI I’ll ask you for your email address, thank you.
March:17:2010 - 07:42
Daisy #35–Again you seem to be projecting your behaviour as if it were mine, just look at your comment #22 on this blog. The email I gave above is the one I put on blogs where appropriate, and on my own. The offer is merely so you don’t need to clog John’s blog with this type of comment to me, but it seems you prefer to do so. Thus, this comment here, instead of by email to you.
Btw. the conversations you have here aren’t private nor exclusive. Anyone might feel compelled to comment on something you write. That is the point of a blog, though people do stay out of certain discussions by choice. Otherwise, it is assumed you would be using other modes of communication.
March:17:2010 - 08:02
Yes, that is valid when we are on talking terms. If we are not on talking terms then there is no need for you to interfere with my conversations with others.
March:17:2010 - 08:07
Daisy #37–Again, I only comment on subjects of interest on a public thread on a public blog, just as others do. You are not having private conversations here with anyone. Presumably, since you have asked for the email of certain commentators you realize that. Once again, I reminded you here of mine so you wouldn’t feel compelled to clog John’s blog with this sort of nuisance comment, and I wouldn’t be forced to respond to correct inaccuracies. It seems you need the readership of John’s blog to be encumbered by this type of dictatorial nonsense.
March:17:2010 - 14:52
Probably nobody is reading this now that it has scrolled on by, but I shall add that there was more to the power of Asa as Sudeiri than simply her being the wilfull mother of a bunch of powerful men. As the favorite widow of the founder of the Kingdom, she carried a special respect from all of them as well as pretty much anybody else she would come in contact with in her later years.
Also, it should be kept in mind that the internal politics of the royal family is also very much the tribal politics of the Kingdom, as Abdulaziz unified the Kingdom partly by marrying daughters of tribal leaders after he defeated them in battle and incorporated their territories into the KSA (always divorcing one of his wives when he did so, thereby staying at three at any time so that he could marry on the spot, as it were, when necessary). As the lead wife, Asa had greater knowledge of all these personal and political matters through the wives and their sons and their tribes. So, she had vast knowledge as well as vast unofficial authority, and reportedly she used it fully to the end of her days, ordering what her various sons did in pretty much all matters from the personal to the political.
March:17:2010 - 19:45
Barkley Rosser–thank you for your initial comment which sits still in my Google Reader to remind me to respond, and this one.
I agree that women in these situations, including Asa as Sudeiri, have immense, though unacknowledged, power. It reminds me in British history of the power of Eleanor of Aquitaine, or in more contemporary times the role the late Queen Mother played in bolstering King George VI and effecting policy and tone of the Royal family especially during WWII. The Capetian Kings were so powerful in France because of the capacity to produce 10 generations of competent male heirs when other families weren’t able to do so and so were weakened in power. In this way the women of the Capetian kings were powerful in their own right.
I am certainly aware that Asa has great power at the very least as the mother of the “Sudeiri 7″ whose sheer numbers make them a prominent force with the strength of ties that being full brothers confers, let alone their tribal connections.
I have done a series of posts on the Royal marriages and their impact on Saudi. including its history, and touched on many of the issues you addressed here. I also reflected on the power of various women, sisters, wives or mothers of the Kings whose role as adviser and leader behind the scenes was clear but less well documented than the history of the men for cultural reasons.
You may wish to read the series of posts which start with an Introduction, then 4 parts focusing on a specific Al Saud each, and a Reflections post on the prior ones, then another post on the Royal intermarriages amongst royals of the GCC and MENA, and how they affect politics in the region.
The RoyalSaudi/nonSaudi blog category in the sidebar leads to the 7 posts, or you could start here:
Royal Saudi/non-Saudi Marriages and Their Children: Introduction
or here (includes a summary)
Royal Saudi/non-Saudi Marriages and Their Children: Reflections
and work through the others.
I hope you will enjoy them and comment on anything of interest.
I think the key here, ie in this thread, though, is to give more overt and acknowledged power to all Saudi women, and to have them contribute more fully to society.
Thanks again for both your comments.
March:18:2010 - 11:51
Chiara,
You’re welcome and shukran.
March:18:2010 - 12:41
Definately she wields power. I’m not sure I’m much “in praise of it” though
March:18:2010 - 13:43
I’m not sure I’m much “in praise of it” though
Amen, Sandy!
March:18:2010 - 14:12
Barkley Rosser–Afwan!
PS I just clicked through to your list of publications and CV. Impressive! Also enviable list of visiting professorships (especially Paris!!) and one to my maternal grandparents region, Le Marche (both from Fano, and lived in Pesaro before immigrating to Canada).
A little economics expertise wouldn’t hurt in the comments on the poverty in Saudi posts! LOL: ) Perhaps not enough of a diversion from everyday work.