Well, not always, apparently…
Diplomat Whose Name Is Dirty Word in Arabic
Rejected as Saudi AmbassadorA high-ranking Pakistani diplomat reportedly cannot be appointed ambassador to Saudi Arabia because in Arabic his name translates into a phrase more appropriate for a porn star, referring to the size of male genitals, Foreign Policy reported.
The Arabic translation of Akbar Zeb to “biggest d**k” has overwhelmed Saudi officials who have refused to allow his post there.
Zeb has run into this problem before when Pakistan tried to appoint him as ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, where he was rejected for the same reason, according to Foreign Policy.
This is not dissimilar to a certain Saudi trading company, bearing the founder’s and his sons’ name, which translates very badly into the Moroccan dialect. The honorable (in Saudi) name seems to translate as ‘flaming homosexual’ in Maghrebi argot.
RSS feed for comments on this post.
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
February:04:2010 - 18:46
LOL, I heard jokes of this kind, but never thought that one day they would be true.
That’s language for ya, I once was told that a slight variation in the pronunciation of my name in a far eastern language means “does not smell good” I felt bad for a few days
but then an eastern european told me my name meant “cool” in their language… and then I felt good enough to get back to equilibrium 
February:04:2010 - 19:41
This is ironic, as one of the points I make in discussing naming babies of mixed heritage is to make extra sure the name has a positive sound and meaning in all ancestral cultures, and whatever languages and cultures the parents are currently or foreseeably involved in. Then I add that for sure the child will go to a culture as an adult where their carefully chosen name means poopface or some such.
Hmmm the only slang Moroccan coming to mind means “willie” and is close to the name Aziz. Must reflect on this further. LOL
February:04:2010 - 21:14
Poor guy. On the other hand, he is sure to be a hit in the party circuit in Manhattan.
February:04:2010 - 23:12
Simply he can change his name…And who would name their child that? I have a friend who worked in admin in a small Saudi town who said she saw names of ppl like “orgasm” “ugly”. I don’t understand that really. I think this is a joke of some sorts.
A person could be such a Big Dick! Dickhead! A hole
Then a person could have a Big Dick!
The second trait is much more desirable. LOL. Thus, the first thing I would be thinking upon meeting Akbar Zeb would be, “Are you or do you have?” I understand….
February:05:2010 - 00:50
This is not an isolated incident; back in the 90′s there was a French diplomat based in Riyadh who rejoiced in the name of Cos. I believe he changed it to something less “offensive” while in post.
For those unfamiliar with Arabic, it is an approximation of the female counterpart of the subject piece.
February:05:2010 - 01:37
Bedouins used to (and apparently still) give their kids ugly names in order to avoid attracting the attention of jinns. You see that, too, in some other cultures. The Hmong, in Vietnam/Laos did it. I think there may be a few (Asian) Indian tribes as well.
February:05:2010 - 01:44
And east of Suez, the word Maftool substitutes for the doubly-obscene Maghrebi term!
February:05:2010 - 08:18
French people often feel glad to offer Couscous to people from the Middle-East and are so surprised to see women blush and men either laugh (if there are men only) or feel uncomfortable (if accompanied by their wives).
February:05:2010 - 08:57
It works the other way around, too. Bandar = Monkey in Urdu.
February:05:2010 - 11:06
I didn’t write on this topic yesterday because I needed time to do some research on it. I had the feeling that this translation was wrong and I found that it is wrong.
This is in fact a Persian name. Akbar means great and Zeb means “beauty” or “one who adorns.” Thus, Aurangzeb the Mughal Emperor’s name meant “one who adorns the throne.” There is another feminine name Zebunnisa, which means “ornament amongst women” i.e., an extremely beautiful and accomplished woman.
Thus, Akbar Zeb should be translated as “one who has a highly attractive personality.”
I have got this from some experts of Arabic, Persian and Urdu.
The Saudi personnel responsible for translating people’s names should acquire good command over Arabic, Persian and Urdu, the cultural context in which names evolve in these languages and also on the normal rules of translation employed in translating from any language. This case shows the poor quality personnel employed in the section of the foreign service department of Saudi Arabia dealing with names.
In any case, I don’t see the logic of translating people’s names into Arabic. The unwillingness to accept names from other languages and cultures shows the closed mentality of Saudis. And translating names in such an absurd manner shows their low awareness level of other cultures.
I should say Arabs instead of Saudis, since some other countries in that region also rejected him.
February:05:2010 - 11:39
The Urdu meaning of the word is actually immaterial here. When an Arab hears the name, he will hear it as an Arabic word. If he is acquainted with Urdu, it may occur to him just what the name actually means, but he’s still going to laugh inside. As most Arabs don’t have Urdu as a second language, the would-be ambassador would have to wear a sign around his neck saying, ‘”Zeb” actually means “beauty” in Urdu.’ It’s easier for all to simply refuse the appointment.
The ambassador should consider requesting the Foreign Ministry appoint him to non-Arabic assignments, or possibly to change his name. It’s not his fault, of course, but he would be unable to avoid being the butt of countless jokes. Neither Pakistan nor Arab countries really want that.
February:05:2010 - 11:58
What I am trying to point out here is that Zeb is not an Arabic word at all – it is Persian, borrowed by Urdu. So there is no question of what an Arab will think in Arabic when he hears that name. He has to know the Persian/Urdu meaning to understand the meaning, since this is a Persian, not an Arabic word in the first place.
It’s very much like what an English-speaking person will think on hearing an Asian language name – either this name will be meaningless or if the person knows the language, s/he will know the original meaning of the name. But they can’t simply assign a meaning to it on their own.
If Arabs insist on looking at it that way, it only shows their biased mind. Perhaps the bias is because the word is Persian – ie, the language of today’s Shia people and used by Pakistanis – the South Asians looked down upon by Arabs. This is pure racism coupled with the hatred for other people’s religious beliefs.
Perhaps it also shows how the Arab mind works – excessively obsessed with sex.
In any case, why should they not accept the fact that names from other cultures are different and they should respect other cultures?
February:05:2010 - 13:12
No, the problem is when a foreign word sounds the same as one in the native language. The native language’s meaning will be assigned automatically, without going through much of any thought process, not the foreign meaning.
It’s not bias and it’s not stupid. It’s the way the mind processes language. Unless you have your mind set to process a foreign language, the sounds you hear will automatically be processed through your brain’s language machine, with the default being your native language. Even if you’re completely fluent in Urdu–as an example–but Arabic is your native tongue, then when you hear a word that makes sense in Arabic, that’s the first meaning you assign to it. If it create dissonance, then you might run it through the language machinery again, looking for a language where it makes better sense. But the ability to do that assumes that you know the foreign language well enough to find that other meaning.
Shifting gears between and among languages isn’t an ordinary skill for most people: they have their native language and nothing else.
February:05:2010 - 13:58
The use of the word “translation” is confusing. It isn’t a “translation” that means “biggest d**k” – but rather if you say those words to an Arabic speaker they directly mean “biggest d**k”. The Arabic word sounds like the Urdu word-but means something different. There’s no predudice or bias involved. It’s just what his name means in Arabic.
I have a long time nick-name which in Arabic means something that is rather amusing. I choose not to use it here- it isn’t rude, but I prefer when people don’t giggle on being introduced and incredulously repeating my name.
February:05:2010 - 15:11
You’re right. Perhaps ‘transference’ would be the better word. Listeners are taking a foreign word and treating it as though it were a word in their own language. Thus the embarrassment.
February:05:2010 - 17:01
Actually these are often called “false friends” from one language to the next: they sound alike but are different in meaning. That is the key. Here the sound of the name in one language means something different in the other. The idea of a homophone is the closest, though I have only known of it applied in the same language, eg: their/ there/ they’re.
“Janice” (God’s gracious little gift) to the French sounds like génisse “a heifer”–not amusing to many American students in France, whereas the French can’t help but hear it that way.
February:05:2010 - 18:17
Now my youngest daughter who bears the beautiful name Ane ( just like her two grand mothers) wasn’t able to buy a pair of soccer boots inscribed her surname.
Nike wouldn’t allow it; she was very disappointed.
February:05:2010 - 21:59
John,
Shifting gears between languages is an ordinary and commonplace skill in my part of the world – every single person here is used to do it. In fact, everyone is required to do it in this kind of social environment. I don’t see why people in other regions should not be able to do it. They should have the openness of mind to do it.
Even if this argument is right that Arabs automatically assign meaning to this word that they are familiar with, this is no reason to reject the appointment of a diplomat from another culture.
I can’t imagine India rejecting the appointment of a diplomat only on this ground. Can you imagine the US rejecting the appointment of a diplomat on this ground?
This is certainly a reflection of the closed-mindedness of the Arabs, who don’t want to understand other cultures. There is no need to defend them on this. They will do well to learn Persian and Urdu as second and third languages. This will make them more accepting of other people and their cultural nuances. I believe they are already making efforts to learn English for their own benefit.
February:06:2010 - 03:07
Actually many people in a lot of environments switch languages routinely, including in Arab countries which are former colonies (among Arabic, regional dialect, and the former colonial power’s language), or have a high level of contact/ desired contact with the US.
The term in linguistics for this pattern of speech that often includes different languages in the same sentence, or from one sentence to the next, or disrupted vocabulary and sentence structure in the primary language is “code switching”, or as it is written in Chicano studies “el code eswitching”
It may well be protective of the diplomat and the representation of the other country to reject an appointment, or at least to request use of a different form of the diplomat’s name. Hard for a diplomat to be taken seriously in representing his country with a name that cannot help but inspire amusement or offense.
People are often happy to modify their own names to more pronounceable/ spell-able/ familiar/ respectable names in another language or country.
NielsC–poor Ane, who indeed has a lovely name. Was the combination with the last name a problem, or the last name reads inappropriately in English? Or was it a different problem?
February:06:2010 - 04:42
Daisy @ 18 in theory I agree with you; however, you are assuming that people will act mature!
Many won’t be able to see beyond the Big Dick!
Dick is also very American but when you put adjectives in front of it, then it gets a little too daring.
February:06:2010 - 06:51
They can just call him Akbar. That’s his first name, so there should not be a problem about it. He can be introduced to everyone as just Akbar and people will stick to it.
February:06:2010 - 07:11
I was under the impression that he had a compound first name like Abdul (X) for example.
February:06:2010 - 08:05
Daisy, India (and western Europe) are not the norm. Most people in the world speak one language and one language only. That’s all they have need for. Most people do not, indeed, run a word through a variety of language filters to figure out what they’re hearing: one filter suffices for 99.99% of all they will ever hear in their lives. Whether it’s in a major country as China–one language with several dialects–or Latin America or large parts of Africa, there’s really only one daily language. That can present its own troubles as well, of course, as the case of the Saudi businessman suggests.
I can certainly think of some names that would give great pause before the US would accept the credentials of a diplomat. The rejection would come before that, at the diplomatic stage of agrément, when appointments are just being suggested, before actual acceptance.
The point is, can an ambassador function if everyone is laughing as soon as they hear his name? Unfair? Certainly. Petty? Perhaps. But that’s people for you.
Actually, you don’t even have to get into ‘code switching’, as Chiara informs us. There are some names in some languages that simply don’t work very well. Many of them come from earlier forms of the language, but at present have amusing or vulgar meanings in particular contexts. I’m sure the Mssrs. ‘Crook’ have a hard time in certain lines of business. I’m equally sure that some people will avoid, where possible, dealing with a surgeon named ‘Butcher’. I won’t even get into the one’s considered vulgar or obscene. Sometimes, problems can be avoided by a change in pronunciation or spelling. Sometimes, they can’t.
February:06:2010 - 08:15
There are assuredly many polyglot Arabs. But how many Arabs use more than Arabic in their daily lives? It’s the same with Anglophones: most Americans have no need to speak any other language, nor do Brits or Australians. Canada may be a special case, but I’d wager that most Canadians (over 75%) speak nothing but English. They don’t have the machinery to filter other languages, simply because they had no need to develop the machinery. They’re not incapable of it, just had no need to do it.
February:06:2010 - 10:31
Actually I recall really putting my foot in it over the name issue. A friend once called me to tell me about the birth of her niece who whose name meant stars in her language. Before I could stop myself, I pointed out that the word meant hemorrhoids in my language.
The conversation ended with me apologizing very very profusely.
February:06:2010 - 10:54
Your “Very very profusely” is certainly below the truth…
February:06:2010 - 11:03
Pirelli, the tire company, had some early problems marketing in Turkey, where ‘pirelli’ means ‘flea’. They all got over it.
The English word ‘peach’, the fruit, unfortunately sounds like the Turkish word for ‘bastard’.
February:06:2010 - 12:04
“Most people in the world speak one language and one language only. That’s all they have need for.”
Where did you get that information?
From the Center for Applied Linguistics:
“Fewer than 25% of the world’s approximately 200 countries recognize two or more official languages, with a mere handful recognizing more than two (e.g., India, Luxembourg, Nigeria). However, despite these conservative government policies, available data indicate that there are many more bilingual or multilingual individuals in the world than there are monolingual. In addition, there are many more children throughout the world who have been and continue to be educated through a second or a later-acquired language, at least for some portion of their formal education, than there are children educated exclusively via the first language.”
February:06:2010 - 12:26
From the observation that most people, still, do not live far from where they were born. I’ll dispute the definition of multilingual used in the piece you cite as being over-inclusive. I use a definition that includes complete fluency in more than one language, not just ‘being able to communicate’. Sure, people exposed to other languages can ‘communicate’, if only to order something off of a menu or find a public toilet. That’s not really multilingual. Nor do I count those who might have had a course in a second language in high school or even university to be competent speakers, and therefore multilingual.
But even accepting the broader definition, it does nothing to address the fact that there are many more languages (though the world lost one this week) than there are people fluent in all of them. An American with no particular ethnic origin might ‘get by’ in Spanish or maybe French, but is going to be left high and dry with Urdu or Chinese. Similarly, a typical Arab speaker might have some competence in a second language (French for N. Africa, say, or English in the Gulf) but unless s/he has particular reasons to know Urdu is never going to start guessing that there’s another sense of a word that makes perfect (if obscene) sense in Arabic.
From Wikipedia:
February:06:2010 - 13:14
I agree with the idea of degrees and forms of bilingualism and would add that how they are assessed varies and can be highly political (eg. the relatively low government set standard set in Canada, at least imho).
I think the issue is more what code the person(s) would be functioning in. I am certainly fully fluent in both English and French, but in French I know about a bunch of people whose names had no English correlates for me until much later than hearing them initially, and by conscious effort, or reading:
Nelly Yeee-ooong (Neil Young)
Laddy Dee-ann–ah (Lady Diana)
Kroutchef (Kruscheff)
Not to mention the play by Michel Tremblay (famous Quebec playwright and theatre director)I saw and understood–all of it, the French Canadian, the joual, the gay Montréalais slang–except the mystery word “pinotte“. I didn’t clue into until later when discussing the play in English–peanut!!! Why didn’t they just say arachide? Oh, that’s the point–Québécois, not French.
Whatever code one is functioning at the time determines how the word is interpreted/ understood.
Educated North Africans have full fluency in French and dialectal Maghrebi, some in Arabic (older often) and some in English (younger often). They frequently code switch in the same sentence, and certainly in the same “paragraph”. They also code switch by topic eg. business in French or English, social in dialect, or by interlocutor eg Arabic for non-North Africans. So 2 Moroccan colleagues speaking about business speak in French, then may switch to Moroccan to discuss the football game, how they spent the weekend, etc.
February:06:2010 - 14:03
Now what would happen if Mr. Akhbar Zeb pitched up in Fez? Would the typical Moroccan figure out that his name had a beautiful meaning in Urdu/Persian?
Code switching does go on all the time, but it requires that someone have the codes to begin with. I used to be able to manage a tri-language conversation (English, Arabic, French) at one time, but if you threw in Latvian, the conversation would have ground to a halt while everyone tried to make their best guesses.
February:06:2010 - 17:06
John–exactly. The listeners will listen in the main code of the conversation, or the 2 or 3 that are acceptable/known in that setting. Anyone familiar with the Arab dialect that equates Zeb with Dick will hear “big dick”. This is also true for homophones, including an esteemed colleague in one of my professional affiliations in one Anglophone country, Richard Hare, who insisted on going through life as Dick, making introductions in obligatory professional social functions verrrrry interesting–almost a test of professionalism (ie not laughing a colleague’s name). Ah, and the men named Vivian, Valerie, and Jan–such a challenge for an Anglophone or an Anglo wannabee: as an Eastern European woman said to our big boss, and a particularly narcissistic one “But Valerie! That is a girl’s name!”. It was at a cocktail hour with few places to hide from her, pretend you didn’t know her, etc. Verrry challenging professional social function.
February:06:2010 - 18:08
I think ‘professionalism’ here can be best defined as ‘keeping a straight face, at least until you leave the room.’ I’ve had instances where names just cracked me up, but I could hold it in, thus proving my diplomatic acumen.
February:06:2010 - 18:42
John–Yes indeed. A professional trait required of all diplomats, physicians, lawyers, and I dare say many others.
February:06:2010 - 23:48
All I know is I said “Akbar Zeb” three times yesterday. Once each to my husband and two older boys. Should have had a camera on them. Husband “what are you learning about NOW on the internet???” All of them very startled. One of the boys kept a straight face (mostly, as his mother I could tell he was startled), “what about it Mom?” I guess he’s the future diplomat.
February:07:2010 - 00:55
Sandy–Hilarious!! Thank you for doing this research for us! And of course thank you to your family for taking part! The future diplomat/ other professional sounds like he has a great career ahead of him! Still LOL about this one!
February:07:2010 - 03:28
Sandy,
That kind of response was obvious from your family, since they are not aware of the actual meaning of this name. This is not surprising, it was only expected. It only attests to what I have been saying that the Arabs are not exposed to other people’s cultures.
It’s my personal experience that Persian-speakers are much more aware of other people’s cultures than the Arabs. They are also much more accepting of other people’s cultures than the Arabs.
Sparky,
Urdu first names are usually not compound words. Urdu names in South Asia are usually simple first and last names, sometimes father’s name added as the middle name. Last name of South Asian Muslims can be an Urdu word, a caste name (yes, South Asian Muslims have caste too) or a word denoting their occupational or social status. In South India, it is not uncommon to find a personal name in Urdu and a last name in the local South Indian language. The local language term can often be added as an initial prefixed to the personal name in Urdu (such as G. Raheel). Muslim names in South Asia thus can have diverse patterns.
Urdu borrows from Persian, Arabic and Hindi and uses the Hindi sentence structure. It has more Persian vocabulary than Arabic.
February:07:2010 - 04:01
John,
In the case of a foreign language word, the original meaning of that word should be given primacy, not what the people have made out of it because they are not aware of other cultures and their languages.
There is a place called Lund in Germany, which means the phallus in colloquial Hindi. But if you pronounce this word in front of Indians and tell them it’s a place in Germany, they will accept it quite well. There will be no derision or shock because they are multilingual people and they know that a word can have different meanings in different languages.
I understand that Arabs will think of the known meaning of Zeb first when they come across it. That’s why I said Arabs should learn Persian and Urdu as second and third languages. This will expand their mental horizons and they will learn to look at the world differently.
It should be the natural instinct of the people to enquire into the original meaning of a foreign word and it is this that is missing in the Arabs. The problem is not that they don’t know the actual meaning of a word, or they will think of the known meaning of Zeb first if they hear it. The real problem is that they are ignorant about other cultures and languages and they don’t want to learn. This comes out of living in an excessively closed environment and excessive emphasis on monolingualism.
In fact, Zeb is widely used in Urdu as prefix or suffix to names and is even used in commonplace expressions such as “it’s not becoming of you,” which in Urdu becomes “it doesn’t impart zeb to you.”
If the Arabs don’t know this, they should have the desire to learn. If they don’t have the desire to learn, it only shows their closed mindset.
It is only to the advantage of the Arabs if they come out of this kind of mindset. It doesn’t do any good to anyone to have this kind of closed mindset.
They can always call this diplomat as just Akbar, which is his first name. If they introduce him as Akbar, that’s what everyone will call him. This is not such a big problem which can’t be solved, if only they want to solve it.
The fact that they don’t want to solve it by calling him Akbar, shows their bias against other cultures.
February:07:2010 - 04:12
@Daisy
My entire family with the exception of myself are multilingual/multicultural. Of course they responded that way. They DO know what the word means. It is a COMMON word in ARABIC-it is NOT a foreign word to them. Don’t you get it? Some words are in more than one language but they have different meanings.
If someone tells me ICE CREAM I don’t think to ask if it means something else in another language.
I can’t believe you have the nerve to talk about an “Arab” mindset-or to call a whole race of people “ignorant” when your “ignorance” and prejudiced “mindset” is so continuosly on display.
February:07:2010 - 04:23
@Chiara,
I was pleased to do it…you are very welcome. And I greatly appreciate your not thinking my husband/children are ignoramouses for being suprised when their wife/mother said “Biggest D**k” to them, rather than their contemplating that perhaps “Biggest D**k” means something else in another language- and researching all the languages before assuming I really did said “Biggest D**k” which was indeed what I said.
February:07:2010 - 04:26
Incidently, his wife’s name is Fakhri Aurangzeb – Fakhri is her name and Aurangzeb was her father’s name.
Akbar Zeb is the Pakistani High-Commissioner to Canada.
February:07:2010 - 04:32
Sandy,
Please read my comment to John above. I gave an example from Germany vs Hindi there. You can see the difference – and perhaps will understand why I am saying all this.
Zeb is borrowed by Arabic from Persian and Arabic speakers should know what it means in Persian if not in Urdu.
As I said above, Urdu borrows from Persian, Arabic and Hindi and Urdu speakers usually know if the meaning has changed in Urdu, what the word means in the original language.
I am not a speaker of Urdu, Persian or Arabic, but why do you think my mind is conditioned to do this research automatically when I hear a controversy related to a word which I have heard hundreds of times in Urdu names in India? How do you think this conditioning came about?
February:07:2010 - 04:36
@Daisy
BTW his first name isn’t Akbar, as you have claimed repeatedly.
February:07:2010 - 04:44
What if you don’t know there is a controversy? I guess then you just display your ignorance. If no one explained it to those Hindi speakers- they would just assume the town is called “Phallus”
Arabs are perfectly capable of having it explained to them. Or do you think them unusually ignorant? Never mind. You’ve already made that clear.
And I have NO IDEA how the conditioning of a mind such as yours came about- and it would be impolite for me to speculate.,
February:07:2010 - 04:50
All I know is I used to say to my husband “Zip it” and he was like “WOA!”
Zip (Zeb) up your pants
Zip (Zeb) your lips
p and b are interchangeable in Arabic there is no PEE there is BEBSI.
I have trained myself not to use that word among Arabs because they are sensitive to foul language.
February:07:2010 - 06:09
Daisy #37,#38,#42–we understand your meaning, we disagree: a) that Arabs are uniformly ignorant with a closed mindset (ie any more ignorant or closed minded than any other group, that is); that people, even when they do know the languages of the double codes, will suddenly not find it offensive/ funny/ inadvisable to be using a certain name in a given language of a given culture.
Sandy #40–you are welcome, and of course your family are intelligent, multilingual, sophisticated, and protective enough of you to be concerned about your internet findings, and why you might want to discuss an “akbar zeb”. Too bad there aren’t pictures/video; I still laugh imagining this experiment and the looks on their faces. LOL
Sandy #43–indeed his full name is Miungal [or Mian Gul] AKBAR ZEB:
Pakistani Ambassador to Canada Miungal AKBAR ZEB pictured with Canadian Governor General Michaelle JEAN
Mian Gul AKBAR ZEB pictured with the Pakistani Ambassador to Portugal and Assif Ali Zardari
Miangul Akbar Zeb’s FIL, Miangul AURENZEB’s entry in Wikipedia with family names and link to an ancestral tree full of zebs.
Sparky #45–LOL
and good to remember!
Of potential interest to anyone:
According to graduate student, independent film-maker, and blogger, Pakistani-American Jehanzeb, of Muslim Reverie, “zeb” (pronounced “zayb”) means “beautiful”, as he elaborated in a post on why he no longer shortens his name. He doesn’t presume that people will know how to pronounce his name or understand its meaning (world of beauty), but he is happy to teach them.
February:07:2010 - 07:26
Sparky, that your husband reacted like that “is not surprising, it was only expected.” because he is an Arab and as Daisy would say, “… they are ignorant about other cultures and languages and they don’t want to learn.”
February:07:2010 - 08:19
Thanks Sandy. What I think Daisy is trying to say is that it would be ideal if people could accept people and their names even if they sound foul in one’s native language. Daisy I am assuming and correct me if I am wrong is multilinguil and that may be the reason for her strong persepctive. It is a bit tough. From other people’s perspective it is a mental barrier of shorts because if someone had a name like “Gaylord Falker” in the movie “Meet the Parents” it would be tough. John is making a valid point by saying by nature it is quite difficult especially for those who haven’t been exposed to other languages. If I had to say that persons name it would be hard to get the image of the Biggest Dick out of my head. My mother in law renamed a Srilankan maid who was called “Kussumic” which is “Your mother’s Vagina” in Arabic. I was upset a lil but to prevent constant imaging going on people’s minds it was in the best interest of all parties. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who would constantly have to call that person’s name whether over a loudspeaker or over the phone! I couldn’t imagine having to interact with the Biggest Dick everyday. Perhaps after time I would get used to it. I don’t know really.
February:07:2010 - 09:21
@ Sparky,
I think what she said is that it’s too bad everyone can’t do that- but that people from more sophisticated, cultured backgrounds than Arabs can- and Arabs are deliberately due to stubborness and ignorance clinging to their ways. She was pretty clear.
I feel sorry for whoever would have to deal with Biggest D**k. I feel more sorry for Biggest D**k himself.
I think for the dignity of the maid that was probably best- and would have been best in ANY country or ANY language where her name meant such a thing. Not just because she was dealing with an Arab population.
@Chiara
My husband is used to my shenanigans by now- but this one really got my kids!
I knew his full name- I just didn’t feel like offering it at the time.
February:07:2010 - 09:29
Daisy: Perhaps, but your argument assumes that the listener is even aware that the word has another meaning, that it’s even from a different language. As you note, if you preface the use of the word by pointing out that it’s a foreign word, then many problems can be avoided. It gets rather tedious to do that as you’re introducing someone to a few hundred people at a reception. And then again at the next reception, and the next speaking engagement, and the next encounter on a street. In other words, while it’s possible, it’s not practicable. It’s a far easier situation to say, “Umm, your name presents a problem. We’d just as soon you not take the posting.”
Nor does your solution actually solve the problem: it only solves part of the problem. What if the next awkwardly-named diplomat comes, not from a Persian language area, but, say, a Vietnamese area? Will all Arabs now have to learn Vietnamese? Or Turkish? Or Twi? Or Wajjari? Your solution would be complete only if everyone understood all spoken languages.
Ordaining that other people should learn other languages is a nice thought, but a bit unrealistic, no? People will learn what is useful to them, not necessarily what other people think is good for them. This isn’t ‘Arab behavior’, it’s human behavior. People are economic in their behavior. They don’t waste time on things that are unlikely to affect them; they; don’t spend time learning things simply because it’s new information. Schools are already faced with deciding what they need to teach and what they can afford to teach. Universal education in all things just isn’t available these days. Science fiction, though, has always look forward to the days when there are ‘Universal Translators’, devices that convert alien tongues into the wearer’s own.
Your proposal that the ambassador be called by his first name, again, only answers part of the problem: those who only hear his name. Those who read his name on documents where full names are required (passports, visas, iqamas, etc.) are still going to be hit in the face by something rude, even with the prior clue that they’re dealing with a situation involving an alien. I guess the ambassador would be spared their laughing in his face: they’d only be laughing behind his back. Neither of those is desirable.
I certainly do think many Saudis are xenophobic and disrespectful of other cultures. This, however, is not a good example of it.
February:07:2010 - 09:39
My surname is one that’s often mispronounced. I use a soft ‘g’, but others with the same name use a hard ‘g’. If I’m in a situation in which my name will be used a lot, I’ll ‘correct’ the speaker toward my preferred pronunciation. If it’s a one-off, say at a sales counter, then I don’t bother. I know who I am. Sometimes, I can even respond to a ‘Hey, you!’
February:07:2010 - 10:36
Sandy #49–yes get them young and impressionable! I was sure you knew, I had to look it up so I wanted to share in the clearest first name LAST NAME way.
February:07:2010 - 11:37
@Chiara
You know…when you write something in ALL CAPS it is the equivalent of shouting in type-speak. Given your background, I wonder what Freud would say about what you’ve been shouting on this board
@John,
I thought I was “hey you”!
February:07:2010 - 12:07
Sandy–LOL
I didn’t even think about that, solid Caps is standard in some places for last name, so you don’t have to specify. I just checked with Freud–we agree to disagree! LOL 
February:07:2010 - 15:45
Chiara et al: Further instructions would be in trying to explain to an Arab the word “zip”, do not pantomime putting up your zipper unless you want people to gasp for air. Trust me on that one! Tried it
February:08:2010 - 01:55
Yes, his name is Miangul Akbar Zeb – I found out later.
That doesn’t change my argument that he can be introduced by his first (and middle) name.
I also looked at his photos – he does have an impressive personality.
He also happens to have excellent credentials as a Diplomat. Ideally, that’s what should matter to a host government, not what his name means.
Indians may think of Lund as phallus, but the point is that they go to the extent of finding out why this word is being used in common language. This explains things to them and they don’t deride such names in foreign language and reject foreigners who use them. I went to the extent of consulting experts of Arabic, Persian and Urdu.
February:08:2010 - 02:23
John,
OK, let me say it a little differently –
Suppose this is the first time I ‘ve come across your name – John. I change the meaning of your name to mean something offensive and degrading.
And then I tell you that I don’t want to interact with you because your name means something offensive to me.
Will that be fair on my part? Should my action be considered valid because I wasn’t familiar with the meaning of this name?
Please note that Zeb is a Persian word. Arabs have borrowed it and changed its meaning first and now they don’t want to accept a person with this name because they have changed its meaning.
I understand that their ancestors changed its meaning, but they should know that this is a Persian word and therefore, they should enquire about its original meaning.
Both Urdu-speakers and the Arabs received this word from Persian. Urdu-speakers used it to come up with some of the most beautiful and elegant names. On the other hand, Arabs degraded its meaning and now they don’t want to accept people with this name.
What does this say about the Arabs?
He can be easily introduced at every reception etc as Miangul Akbar. As for passports etc, this is what I mean – the official handling those documents should ideally understand that he is a foreigner, so should ask him what his name means, if he is so much affected. That will easily clarify the misunderstanding.
The point is – do they have the mental conditioning to ask what a foreigner’s out of place name means? Why don’t they have the mental conditioning to go to this extent?
An Ambassador doesn’t go mixing with common people all the time. he usually mixes with fairly well-educated people, who often belong to the upper strata of the society. At least these people should have the sensitivity to try to accept other people’s cultures.
Of course it’s not possible to learn every language of the world. I am just saying when they hear a foreigner using a word that sounds out of place, they should have the openness of mind to enquire what that word means.
They can’t learn every language of the world. But learning three languages from three different cultures will condition them to accept other cultures more easily.
PS – I never had any doubt that your surname was pronounced with a soft “g” – eventhough this was the first time I heard this surname.
February:08:2010 - 02:29
@Daisy,
I cannot comprehend why you don’t get this. To Arabs it ISN’T A FORIEGN NAME. His name, in Arabic is simply “Biggest D**k” And if your trying to say that Indians wouldn’t have a laugh about someone named “Biggest D**k” in Hindi- I simply don’t believe you at all- and I doubt anyone would.
Of course you did research. You know there is a controversy and you’ll do ANYTHING if you can paint Saudi’s in a bad, negative, ignorant, close-minded way. And thought there is plenty of legit stuff to work with- you can’t let anything by without twisting it into another example of how awful, backward, stubborn (have I used all your favorite adjectives you like to post?) they are.
February:08:2010 - 03:27
No,there are many good things about the Arab world. If only they didn’t have restrictive rules, I would have visited that part of the world.
But yes, they are racists who don’t want to learn about other cultures.
I understand they have this meaning in Arabic, but when they hear the name of an Ambassador, they should know that since he is an Ambassador, he is a foreigner. Hence, the meaning of his name should be checked.
I did some more research. In Hebrew, Zeb means “God’s gift.” That’s another beautiful rendition of this word. Not all people in the world give a derogatory meaning to a word they come across from another culture.
In fact, people from Lund visit here and no one laughs at them or refuses to introduce them. That’s how I am familiar with this name.
I am not the only one arguing like this. There are bloggers on the Internet who are saying the same thing.
http://hatthief.blogspot.com/2010/02/we-deal-with-dick-wadhams-dick-swett.html
http://uaecommunity.blogspot.com/2010/02/pakistan-sends-akbar-zeb-to-uae-ksa-to.html
Do take care to read the comments on the second link. Majority are against the rejection.
Of course, there are lots of people who are joking about it, but there are people who think like me – and they are not all South Asians.
The trouble is that we are all non-Arabs discussing this issue and a lot of people have simply assumed that all the Arab people are with the governments who follow this line of thought.
The truth may be that many Arab people may be against this kind of government decision.
February:08:2010 - 03:44
@Daisy,
Actually, I have no interest in any links you may post. It may suprise you to know, I don’t have issue with trying to find a solution to the issue. I do think things should be worked out for a qualified foreigner.
I do have issue with your blatent racism towards Arabs, however-and the sweeping generalizations you so love to make. Here from just your last post, “But yes, they are racists who don’t want to learn about other cultures.” And also including your remarks about my husband and children.
So pretend you are some sort of modern-minded open-minded researcher if you like- but I’m not buying it, and I haven’t for some time.
February:08:2010 - 09:37
Daisy, fairness has nothing to do with the way people act and react. They do as they do; if they learn that there are other ways of doing things, then they may (repeat, may) find themselves doing things in a different way. They may not. Whether it is fair to another person enters the argument well down the line, though.
It is certainly unfair to Mr. Zeb that his name has a rude meaning in Arabic. I can tell you that Mssrs. Koch have a difficult time in Anglophone countries–unless and until they change the pronunciation, as many do. I’m sure the former Mayor of NY City can tell you all about it. It’s a name that shows up in most Germanic languages, but in the particular Germanic language that is English, its ‘normal’ pronunciation gives exactly as rude a shock as Mr. Zeb’s.
BTW, is the Arabic word ‘zeb’ actually a borrowing from the Persian? Arabic does have its own, indigenous vocabulary, you know. Scatological vocabulary tends to be home-grown.
I’m all in favor of multi-linguism. As you say, it opens new vistas. But you have to be realistic, too. For much of history, people spoke the language that their neighbors spoke and for a very good reason: they didn’t need anything else. For close to 150 years, a typical American spoke English because he had absolutely no need for any other language. (There were and to some extent still are areas in which another language–Swedish, German, Cajun/Creole–dominated due to the contingencies of history.) People in big cities, with international trade and international immigration, had a greater need to be multi-lingual, but for the majority, there was absolutely no need for them to speak anything other than English. A strange-named visitor either modified his name or learned to live with the strange glances he’d get.
Arabs, as human beings, will certainly note that–beyond the shocking–a name is likely to mean something else. They may even wonder what that something else it. The first thing, though, is the shock and amusement.
February:08:2010 - 10:43
Sparky #55–Thank you, I will refrain!
Daisy #56–Actually it does, as others have addressed. I did have a discussion (I don’t consider this research) with an Indian friend (English, Urdu, Hindi) about “lund” and he told be the great fun the Indians he worked with had at the expense of a man named Lundquist or some such, asking him if for ease they could call him “Lund” which unsuspectingly he agreed to, and doing so with great amusement until the boss found out and put an end to it.
Daisy #57–”John” does have another meaning in English which is sometimes used humorously or simply in reference to the toilets, head, loo, whatever. It is such a common English name, and a respected one, that people usually disconnect “John” from “the john”. Ah but children can be so cruel, or as my then 7-year-old cousin cried to his mother “Why did you name me after a toilet?” (in fact he was named after his father who was named after a distinguished lawyer friend of the family”.
There is of course the other “john”, the frequenter or client of a prostitute, not our “John” of course, but one of those other ones.
Daisy #59–unless you can link to current, relevant, peer-reviewed quantitative research articles on any of this, it is indeed racist.
Sandy #58 and #60, John #61–Agreed.
February:08:2010 - 11:00
Personally, I refer to that bathroom fixture as a ‘Bert’. I’ve been doing that since I first became aware of the psychic conflict. Actually, I tend to use the nautical term, ‘head’. I assure you that people with the name John do not come to the ‘disconnect’ easily. The sole comfort is in knowing that there are worse possibilities out there!
February:08:2010 - 11:23
Can Saudis be considered monolinguals as a group when they are taught English in public schools from 6th or 7th grade and a lot of the road signs are in English and that they may have to use English when outside shopping? Also much of their television viewing is in English. If someone knows, please post
February:08:2010 - 11:26
John,
Zeb is Persian. It is easy to see how an “adornment” can translate into the male organ when the word is handled by people who have had no need to speak another language as you say.
I understand that most people in the world have had no need to speak another language and that includes the Americans. But in today’s world, fair action should take primacy, isn’t it so? Shouldn’t we all – regardless of our origins – strive to engage in fairness? It’s only good for the Arabs if they do it, isn’t it so? The very fact that they have lost the chance to have a brilliant diplomat shows that they do have a need to change their outlook. They are no longer living in isolation and they should realise it.
I gave the example of Lund above. Here is another one –
Bandar means a monkey in Urdu and in many other Indian languages. In India, it can even be used in the extended sense of a “sex-fiend.” It’s often used as a term to ridicule someone. It’s certainly not polite to call someone Bandar in South Asia. “Mr. Monkey” is a highly derisive form of address here.
I was talking to some people and asked them if the Saudi prince Bandar comes here as the Ambassador and is introduced to people as “His Excellency Mr. Bandar” (which people will invariably hear as “monkey”), will they make fun of him? They said no, why should they? If he is the Ambassador, people will accept him as the Ambassador. Honestly, even I hadn’t expected this response!
This is the response of educated people and as I said an Ambassador doesn’t move amongst semi-educated ones. The kind of crowd he mingles with should have this kind of perspective.
You are right that the first response may be of shock and amusement. I am sure there are Indians who will be amused to hear the name Bandar in private circles. But in official and diplomatic gatherings where only a certain kind of people are present and in situations such as checking official documents etc, their response is very different – partly because of the educational and professional training they have received and partly because the diplomatic atmosphere demands it.
February:08:2010 - 11:33
Sparky,
From what you say it seems they can understand written and spoken English. But what also matters is how well they can speak and write it as well and the extent of their vocabulary and command over complex expressions. All this may vary from individual to individual. You can say that better since you live there.
February:08:2010 - 11:36
I would say they are closet bi linguals
February:08:2010 - 12:06
Daisy: Are you sure that Arabic borrowed the word? Etymology can be confusing–Persian certainly borrowed a lot of words from Arabic, too. Perhaps they’re related; perhaps they’ve nothing other than similar sounds. It is perfectly plausible that the two words are distinct. It’s also as plausible that Persians ‘borrowed’ the Arabic word and extended the meaning to ‘beautiful’!
At most, all we can say at present is that both Persian and Arabic have a word transliterated as “zeb”.
I suspect I’m going to have to take a look at Indo-European/Aryan, then Semitic word roots to try and figure this out…
BTW, whenever anyone is introduced as “prince so-and-so,” he’s going to be accorded a certain amount of respect out of the gate.
February:08:2010 - 12:37
@ Chiara
Thank you. And I wouldn’t hold your breath about any research!
February:08:2010 - 13:41
Wiki on the name Zeb:
Etymology
Diminutive of Zebedee and Zebulun [1].
Proper noun
Zeb
A male given name. [2]
Wiki on the name Zebedee
Etymology
From the Ancient Greek form of Zebadiah
Proper noun
Zebedee
(Biblical) The father of the Apostles James and John.
A male given name of biblical origin; rarely used.
Related terms
Zeb
Quotations
1611, King James Version of the Bible (Authorized Version), Matthew 4:21
And going from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Wiki on the name Zebulon:
The name is derived from the Northwest Semitic root zbl, common in 2nd millennium BC Ugaritic texts as an epithet (title) of the god Baal, as well as in Phoenician and (frequently) in biblical Hebrew in personal names.[6]
The text of the Torah gives two different etymologies for the name Zebulun, which textual scholars attribute to different sources – one to the Yahwist and the other to the Elohist;[7] the first being that it derives from zebed, the word for gift, in reference to Leah’s view that her gaining of six sons was a gift from God; the second being that it derives from yizbeleni, meaning honour, in reference to Leah’s hope that Jacob would give her honour now that she had given birth to six sons. In Deuteronomy, however an allusion is made to a third potential etymology[8] – that it may be connected with zibhe, literally meaning sacrifice, in reference to commercial activities of the tribe of Zebulun[9] – a commercial agreement made at Mount Tabor between the tribe of Zebulun and a group of non-Israelites was referred to as zibhe-tzedek, literally meaning sacrifice to justice or sacrifice to Tzedek.[10]
The Racial Slur Database:
Zeb Arabs Zeb is the Arabic word for “dick”
I’m going with derived from the Northwest Semitic root zbl and the combined Yahwist/Elohist meanings, because after all, isn’t a zeb a “gift of Jehovah; dwelling of honor”, or should be?
I wouldn’t underestimate the ability of the Y chromosome people (and those who love them) to name their parts with honorifics.
February:08:2010 - 14:04
I’ll toss the possibility of ‘faux liaison’ back at you! You’ve got the Hebrew etymology, but that’s not necessarily the Arabic etymology. ‘Zeb’ in Arabic and Aramaic (both Semitic, of course) can also be ‘fly’. Thus, Baal-zebub is, literally, “Lord of the Flies”.
‘Honorifics for body parts’ isn’t exactly limited to we of the Y Chromosome… I’m sure if you just think a little, you can find counterparts, though they tend toward the homey rather than the grandiose.
February:08:2010 - 14:06
Is that why we call a zipper on trousers a “fly”???
February:08:2010 - 14:08
A cursory look suggest Arabic had greater vocabulary influence on Persian than vice versa, due to the influence of Islam and the near 2 century dominance of Arabian Islam in Persia.
Also, from the Wiki Article on Arabic vocabulary in Persian or Farsi
It is also worth noting that there are several letters generally only used in Arabic loanwords. These letters are pronounced the same as similar Persian letters. For example, there are four functionally identical ‘z’ letters, three ‘s’ letters, two ‘t’ letters, etc.
Etymology, not to mention a zeb, is a beautius thing.
February:08:2010 - 14:26
John #71–Not necessarily but the North West Semitic languages of the root zbl are a branch of the West Semitic languages ie North West Semitic languages an Arabic languages.
Are you referring to the Mons Venus (or just the mons in medicine)?
Methinks a Latin lover had a hand in that one (all puns in the mind of the readers).
Homey? Deified!!!!
Fortunately, as I said above, there is a bit of a mutual admiration society in these honorifics.
To others the grandiose flies!
February:08:2010 - 14:48
John #63–good psychic defense mechanisms
Sparky #64–certainly not uni-lingual, especially as television viewing would give the cultural context of contemporary English as well as just the vocabulary.
Sparky #67–I would agreed in that most are not boastful of their language abilities.
Daisy–I would imagine the concern on the part of the government of the KSA, which is after all a sovereign state with the same right to refuse ambassadorial appointments to its country on any grounds, it that consciously or unconsciously a Big Dick would be too hard an association to ignore for Arabophones of any social, educational, or glottal (poly or otherwise) standing. That is also the point of everyone else here, whether or not they agree with the decision, or even believe this was the real reason for the refusal. Others might be Miangul Akbar Zeb’s links with the Pakistani military and ISI. In which case the choice of excuse is one to humiliate–perhaps.
John #61–on kochs: another example would be the English surname Cockburn (always scrupulously pronounce coe-burn, and derisively cock-burn), from the Old English cocc, ie cox ie rooster, and burn ie bourne ie stream.
Apparently cock was added as a diminutive to other names eg Hancock, Alcock, etc. And that is all I’m saying about that…
Sandy– you are welcome, and I agreed. I am inhaling and exhaling at a normal respiratory rate.
February:08:2010 - 15:20
Cute, but unlikely!
February:08:2010 - 15:25
But again, an assumption! ‘Zeb,’ in Arabic, isn’t from the root Z-B-L, it’s from Z-B-B! NW Semitic or somewhere else?
As to what I was referring, yes, and in the same general location. The synonyms and nicknames are endless in English, though I know that’s not entirely the case in other languages.
February:08:2010 - 15:28
That name had crossed my mind as well. There’s the journalist Patrick (and brother Alex) Cockburn, and a former actor, James Coburn, with a derived name. ‘Koch’, though, has an amusing variety of pronunciations seeking to avoid the obvious.
February:08:2010 - 21:40
John,
Wikipedia articles can’t be trusted all the time. I have found them to be wrong several times.
If you are going to look at the etymology of Zeb, here is something you may consider – Zeb as used in Persian and Urdu is pronounced as “Zaib,” which is used in Urdu names such as in the name of the Ambasador and also in expresseions such as the one I cited above (#38).
I don’t know how exactly the Arabic zeb is pronounced. If it is pronounced differently, it may be a different word, probably of local origin as you suggested.
All three scholars of Persian, Urdu and Arabic said Zaib is originally from Persian. The Zaib that is used in Persian and Urdu is certainly Persian. You can find the origins of the Arabic zeb.
If the two words are different, there is all the more reason for the Arabs not to associate it with the Urdu name, if it is a different word.
No, Indians are not enamoured by the Saudi royalty or Saudi Arabia; in fact they have a very low opinion of them – Indian Muslims most of all. The people I talked to said Bandar shouldn’t be laughed at because he would be the Ambassador. Any other Ambassador with a strange name would be treated in the similar manner by the group of people he mingles with in India.
If Bandar becomes the King of Saudi Arabia, he and his country would certainly be the subject of jokes in India.
But if he comes to India as King, the people he will interact with will treat him with the protocol due to him.
February:09:2010 - 01:51
John #76–referent? #77– the zbl could have been modified since or been a cognate zbb in the Arabic branch of the West Semitic languages, of the zbl in the North West Semitic branch–I am not wedded to the idea but it is a reasonable hypothesis especially as other linguistic information would suggest that the zeb in Persian is a loan word from the Arabic rather than vice versa; re: nicknames forth southern anatomical bits–indeed! #78 Also the famous Canadian folk singer, Bruce Cockburn (pronounced coe-burn).
Daisy #79–the pronunciation is irrelevent. Usually words that are borrowed or adopted from one language are pronounced in the style of the host language. An exception is made in Western languages for Latin words, and even then…
What do you mean by “You can find the origins of the Arabic zeb”?
If you have a coherent etymology to share it would help your argument.
If the two words are different, there is all the more reason for the Arabs not to associate it with the Urdu name, if it is a different word.
You don’t seem to realize that could, would, or should, they will hear the meaning in their own language, even if only as comic relief from a boring meeting or speech, just as most humans with a sense of humour or linguistic playfulness would do. None would laugh in his face, unless as a deliberate strategy to humiliate, again based on usual human behaviour, and including Arabs among usual humans.
I only cite Wikipedia as a handy starting place and where I know enough to trust the information, or where I have checked the original sources as is the case in my referencing it above, and as I have stated before. I trust John knows the merits and limitations of Wikipedia as he has stated them before on this blog in another post–perhaps the last Minarets one.
I found the following article in the Middle East Quarterly on Saudi-India relations to be enlightening, especially as the complexities it outlines have changed little since its writing in 2006: Saudi Arabia Woos China and India. In addition to the madrassa/salafist, and autocratic/democratic differences you often mention, it particularly cites the rise of a “resurgent Hindu nationalism” making the more conservative views of Islam popular among certain Indian Muslims from the uneducated poor to the educated professionals, Indian anger over Saudi’s support of Kashmiri Muslims, of Pakistan generally and specifically its nuclear program unless Israel’s is curbed too, and of the actions of the Palestinians against the Israelis as factors impeding harmonious relations beyond mutual trade interests.
In this more recent article in the Saudi Gazette, the newly (re-) appointed envoy from India to Saudi addresses some of the same issues with the emphasis on the Indian workers in Saudi: Community welfare, bilateral ties top new Indian envoy’s agenda.
I would assume that the Indian diplomatic corps, and government officials would have the same degree of professional not laughing at a colleague’s/ guest’s name to his face as any other similar group, including those in Saudi Arabia. What happens in private is of course a different matter.
February:09:2010 - 07:02
@Daisy:
I haven’t got into this conversation because I was doing my own research so as not to wrong anyone.
No where can I find (and no, my sources are not confined to Wikipedia, which you seem to falsely lambaste) that the Arabic word ZB or it’s root ZBB is derived etymologically from Farsi (which I’m assuming is what you mean by Persian, which is indeed heavily influenced by Arabic) or Urdu. It isn’t even pronounced the same way (the Z in most dialects is accented with a rounded short vowel making it more like zub than zaib). Etymological studies in colloquial Arabic are sparse, so I would love to know the official source of your claim. Being of similar sound does *not* constitute a shared etymological source. The Arabic name NAIF (meaning “lofty”) sounds almost exactly like the English word knife. Are we to say that Arabs have borrowed this word as well and butchered it’s meaning in the process? Preposterous. So far the only source for your information is consulting unnamed “experts”, which is, frankly, no better (and by magnitudes worse) than consulting Wikipedia.
February:09:2010 - 07:03
“From the observation that most people, still, do not live far from where they were born. I’ll dispute the definition of multilingual used in the piece you cite as being over-inclusive. I use a definition that includes complete fluency in more than one language, not just ‘being able to communicate’. Sure, people exposed to other languages can ‘communicate’, if only to order something off of a menu or find a public toilet.”
I think the Center for Applied Linguistics is not considering you “bilingual” if you can order food off a menu. Being functionally bilingual is far more prevalent that you are implying. For example, the indigenous communities in Mexico (and other parts of Latin America) have for centuries spoken the native tongue and Spanish. Nearly every colonized country will have a European and native language, and in many cases people are going to know more than one native tongue. Most Indian nationals (from India not born in the US) seem to be bilingual. I believe in some Eastern European countries, there’s a language used in business (like German) and there the local language groups. I read recently that Ukrainian is becoming more popular than the dominant Russian; nearly everyone there speaks both. True a lot of languages are dying off, but it’s very easy to see that the world is filled with people who are multi-lingual. Certainly more than your 0.01% (even if that was hyperbole on your part, it’s say that terribly off the mark).
True people will have a preference, but that’s not the same as saying they only speak one language because that’s all “99.99%” of the world needs.
February:09:2010 - 07:33
Anonymous,
Most Indian nationals who have lived in India know a minimum of three languages, if not more.
M,
John said he was going to look at the etymology of these words and I said to him that if these two words are pronounced differently then it’s a possibility that these are two different words and Zaib is Persian/Urdu and Arabic zeb/zub is local in origin from Arabia.
I never really talked about the roots of these words.
Which again means that the Arabs shouldn’t associate Zaib with zeb and discriminate agains a person from another culture who carries the name Zaib.
I am waiting for John to find out the etymology of these words and get back to us, which I am sure he will do.
So I don’t see what your problem is about whatever I said to John.
February:09:2010 - 08:20
@Daisy
While they may not be pronounced the same way, they are written the same way. Both Urdu and Arabic use Arabic script that does not explicitly print short vowels in most day to day uses. So the confusion is understandable.
February:09:2010 - 09:06
M: Not only are vowels usually left unwritten, but that second ‘b’ is hiding itself well, too! Diacritical marks like the shadda don’t show up in most instances of general writing, just as the vowels don’t.
Anonymous: You make a fair point. I’d note, though, that in instances like Ukraine (and Poland as well), Russian was a required course in primary and secondary schools through the 1980s. The students (and their parents) realized that this was simple political pressure by the Soviets and, because they were forced to do so, attended the classes. Unless they were thinking of working for the Communist Party, they tended to be utter slackers in the classes, though, learning enough to pass and nothing more. As soon as they left school, the started forgetting the language. I guess you could consider them bilingual; they might even agree in some circumstances. In others, though, they’d deny it.
Now, as Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish, and others are all in the same Slavic language family, there’s a certain amount of overlap–grammar is essentially the same, much of the vocabulary is the same–so arguably, anyone speaking Polish could claim to ‘get by’ in Belorussian or Ukrainian, a bit less so in Czech.
Too, language minorities surrounded by a different language majority have a very real need to acquire at least some of the majority language. Whether they are truly bilingual–equal competence in both languages–is up for question.
As an example, the US Foreign Service Institute, which teaches languages to US diplomats, uses a 0-5 rating system. Full fluency is at 5. People raised in a language often fail to reach the 5 because full fluency includes university education in the subject language. On that basis, even natives of a country might not get a 5 because they lack access to specialized vocabulary that’s acquired only through university education.
This is one of the reasons that the English language media in the Gulf is so important, particularly in political sciences, medicine, economics, sciences, etc. Native Arabs are more fluent in the higher levels of English than they are in the higher levels of Arabic… they studied those topics, used that vocabulary in English, not Arabic.
Are they bilingual? In some contexts, certainly. In others, it’s not so clear.
February:09:2010 - 09:39
It’s a pity we cannot print Arabic here or can we ? I’ll just try; the potential ambassador’s name is written ??? whereas the Arabic zeb (entered in popular French as zob thanks to our Maghrebi friends) is written ??
I’m not a linguist but can those 2 words really have the same etymology ? The presence of the letter ? (Ya) in the first word and its absence in the second make me doubt it.
Can anybody here correct my opinion or confirm it ?
February:09:2010 - 09:43
Ok now it’s confirmed, one cannot see the Arabic letters I’ve typed…
February:09:2010 - 10:31
Urdu does use the vowels in most cases and in fact Urdu has more characters than both Arabic and Persian which have been developed specially to accommodate the Hindi sounds which don’t exist in Arabic. The spelling of Zaib is different from that of Arabic zub/zob/zeb(?) as Michel says, Zaib is written with a ya.
I feel there is a possibility that Zaib (with a ya) is different from the Arabic word zub/zob/zeb(?).
As I said if this is the case then the Arabs should not associate Zaib with zob/zub and discriminate against the Ambassador.
In fact, it has been suggested on some websites that the Arabs didn’t want him because they felt threatened by his excellent credentials. So, this may have been a politically motivated action disguised as linguistic problem.
February:09:2010 - 12:42
M #81 and #84 excellent points and agreed.
Anonymous #82 and John #85–bilingualism is relative and relatively defined. People who are bilingual at high levels may well have areas of relative unilingualism, eg to the extent that I know anything whatsoever about electronics I know more of it in English than in French; literary theory French better than English; knitting French better than English; sailing English better than French–all a function of learning, experience, and preference. I can function well in all in the other language, including at a very high level in literary theory, but it is more of a strain/ annoyance/ waste of time.
Michel #86–Yes, it is possible that they have the same etymology or are cognates despite differences in spelling and pronunciation, and even in evolution of meaning, eg Latin gave rise to vendredi, venerdi, viernes (pronounced biernes) in French, Italian, and Spanish respectively, all of which no longer refer to market day particularly, though yes at Vingtimilia, Italy.
It is also possible they have nothing to do with each other aside from a superficial resemblance: “wit” (Anglo Saxon from the Proto-Germanic wid for “we two”) left little trace in English and has nothing to do with “wit” (from the Anglo Saxon witan from the Proto-Germanic witanan to know) meaning know or understand, eg “I studied Anglo-Saxon language and philology at the university level, to wit alphabet, vocabulary, grammar, etymologies and evolutions from the Old High Norse and Old High German, as well as poetry in the original (lyric, epic, and prosaic), and used to write comical notes to a friend in Old English/Anglo-Saxon including phrases like “Ic wille þat þu were here” (pronounced Ich willah thata thoo wayreh hayreh) , therefore I know whereof Ic spake.
Gerard Manley Hopkins (19th century) poetry is a marvel of Anglo-Saxon prosody (sprung rhythm, caesura, and internal rhymes) and Roman Catholic angst made more acute by clinical depression.
Daisy #83–trilingualism in Indians raised in India is less impressive than at first blush, as Urdu and Hindi are extremely close, as even my Indian colleagues agree. It is rather like saying one speaks Quebecois, French, and Swiss–admirable but not a huge stretch. Also English is quasi-obligatory for higher studies; again, my Indian colleagues agree about this.
From: Developing a tagset for automated part-of-speech tagging in Urdu
Andrew Hardie, Department of Linguistics and Modern English Language, University of Lancaster, a.hardie@lancaster.ac.uk
[found directly via Google Scholar and readable for the non-linguist]
3. Some background on the Urdu language
Urdu is an Indo-European languages of the Indo-Aryan branch of the family. It is spoken in India and Pakistan (where it is the main official language) and also throughout the world Urdu is more closely related to Hindi than either is to any other language. Indeed, their high level of similarity has led some to consider them dialects of the same language (as reported by Bhatia and Koul 2000: ix-x). Masica (1991: 27) goes to so far as to suggest that by one definition of a dialect, Urdu and Hindi “are different literary styles based on the same linguistically defined subdialect”. Both originate from the dialect of the Delhi region and share their phonology, morphology and syntax in all
but the smallest details. However, Urdu has borrowed a great deal of vocabulary (and its writing system) from Persian and Arabic, whilst Hindi has borrowed much vocabulary from Sanskrit.
As for myself, while I recognize John took this on of his own free will, and is highly rigorous, the problem is that the issue is moot. It makes no difference to everyday experience in Arabic of the word zeb even among the multi-lingual, educated, sophisticated set. Or do you still think that all Arabs are rubes, or genetically programmed to perversely abuse words, names, and people, or that KSA doesn’t have the right to accept or not the appointment of any ambassador on any grounds, pretense, whim?
Daisy #88–Why trust your feeling, why not provide an etymology or have one of your scholar friends share one with us?
Didn’t I already raise the issue of a politically motivated linguistic excuse? Take a look at the credentials of the Saudi Ambassadors, rather an impressive lot of Georgetown PhDs. Do you really think the Saudis were threatened by Akbar Zeb’s credentials, as good as they may be?
We get the point, you wish by all means necessary to denigrate the Saudi decision, the manners and understanding of Arabs, and elevate Indians, including Indian Muslims above Saudis/ Arabs. You have failed to persuade most commenting here.
February:10:2010 - 01:50
@Daisy
“In fact, it has been suggested on some websites that the Arabs didn’t want him because they felt threatened by his excellent credentials. So, this may have been a politically motivated action disguised as linguistic problem.”
I very much doubt that. The Kingdom is choke full of highly qualified Indian people, some of them pulling six figure salaries, so I really don’t see this as a cause.
February:10:2010 - 08:30
M,
Their number is much less than the number of Indians in other countries. They appear so many simply because there are so many Indians around, but they are not so many in a relative sense.
Check your comment again – I think you have mixed up two different arguments of mine. I have replied to your second paragraph.
In fact, all Indians there are not drawing 6-figure salaries and many are badly exploited by the Arabs.
Please read this –
http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2009102352337
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=128697&d=22&m=11&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
Because Indians are discriminated against by the Arabs, they don’t like Saudi Arabia.
February:10:2010 - 11:57
Some illumination from Eman/Saudiwoman,of A Saudiwoman’s Weblog, in response to one of her commentators:
saudiwoman
February 10, 2010 at 11:50 am
I’m not sure of the name you meant because I checked and Mumtaz had 14 children with the emperor. I believe you mean Aurangzeb and if so then no it only sounds foreign.
About the article you mentioned, after it was published, a Pakistani friend of mine told me that the diplomat’s name is actually pronounced as zabe and not zieb. That makes a difference in Arabic too because then it would be spelled ??? which is different from the spelling of the offensive term.
The concern is obviously about the aural proximity of beauty and the male sex organ.
:P
in the original the Arabic script shows
February:10:2010 - 12:19
Saudi woman has made a mistake somewhere. Urdu word is definitely Zaib and not zabe.
February:10:2010 - 12:58
Daisy #93–while it is possible she or her Pakistani friend made a mistake somewhere, in English transliteration “zaib” and “zabe” or “zayb”, sound the same, while “zieb” sounds different than them.
Any progress on your own etymological research, or sharing that of one of your friends?
February:10:2010 - 13:31
@ 94
You are correct Chiara- “zaib”, “zabe” and “zayb” sound the same. It is very difficult to get consistant methods of transliteration. But those are the same.
February:10:2010 - 15:47
Daisy
I must be an ignorant racist Arab because
1- “an ancestral tree full of zebs” from Chiara’s(#46) made me smile.
2- You contemplating a visit to my country(#59)made me cringe.
sorry John I couldn’t resist LOL
February:10:2010 - 19:07
Sandy–thanks for the confirmation. As you write, English transliteration is consistently pronounced this way, even if the spellings vary.
Eman–glad you enjoyed the joke!
February:10:2010 - 19:13
Eman,
No I am not contemplating a visit to your country, whose people discriminate against South Asians and against all non-White non-Arab people. This kind of racism is the worst in the world today.
I said if your country was not like that I would visit there. If it was not like that I would have liked your country.
February:10:2010 - 19:26
Daisy #98–that reminds me about a point you made above somewhere about visiting the region if there were not restrictions. As far as I know (and I have checked in the past) there are no restrictions on single women travelling to any other MENA country, and in fact Sad Girl who did a post on my blog, did travel to Saudi as the guest of a Saudi family who signed the visa/Iqama, for her. They were friends, and unrelated to the Saudi she hoped to marry.
I do think that visiting an Arab Muslim country, which would have similarities to, though differences as well from, Saudi, would help you to better appreciate the people, culture, and religion, and better nuance your beliefs, and comments.
Reverse racism or prejudice is unhelpful in improving understanding and behaviours between cultures and peoples. The Indian Ambassador who was quoted in the article I linked in my comment #80 seems to have a more fruitful approach of recognizing the challenges and working constructively towards changes for Indian workers in Saudi.
Btw a Pakistani-Canadian who lived in Saudi for 18 years told me she loved her life there, and appreciated what it gave her and her family in life experiences, education, and income while her husband was a professor at KFUPM. They only came to Canada to further her children’s educational opportunities for university. She was well aware of the differential attitudes towards South Asians, but recognized that her husband had a better career there, and she and her children an excellent life there. She also recognized that not all Saudis bought into the systemic differences between Saudis and South Asians. She also had no qualms about having servants and was happy to let them do everything, including fetching her a glass of water instead of getting it herself. This is of course a shocking attitude to North Americans, but I heard it in the spirit it was intended, and appreciate that she is a kind, if demanding, employer, based on her current behaviour. Just 2 examples, hers and mind, of extending a positive attitude in trying to understand others.
If you haven’t read it yet, I would recommend you read NidalM’s 2 part personal essay on my blog: Desis, Multiculturalism, Saudization, and Marriage Part I; and Part II. He has very intelligent and insightful comments to make about growing up Pakistani in Saudi, working there now, and how Saudization could best be structured to best help Saudi, and South Asians who have made their lives there.
February:10:2010 - 23:55
Given all that was said…I, in essence, agree with Daisy. Still, a person’s name is a person’s name and Saudis do have a way of wanting to change something about someone before accepting them. Because we live in this real world where people can’t expand their minds beyond their own perceptions such rejections will continue to exist especially in closed minded countries like the KSA.
I am not here to brag about how cultured and refined and whatever else is necessary to see beyond the Biggest Dick; however, if he were really a good ambassador I wouldn’t reject him but kindly suggest he may want to change his name as to not be subjected to rejection and jokes.
People who are calling Daisy an ingorant racist need to get a grip on reality. She is making a valid point but because of their own inflated pride they fail to see it.
February:11:2010 - 00:17
Furthermore, Eman I cringe at the fact that you would cringe at the notion that Daisy would come into your country.
I would welcome her into my home along with the Biggest Dick and anyone else who comments here.
Any Saudi cannot argue they (generally speaking) are indeed racist when it comes to names. I thought about the name Musa for a son and was told “UGH that is so African”. I have proposed other names and they were like “Ewe that is so Egyptian”. I am about ready to drop an F-bomb so bring on people, bring it on.
February:11:2010 - 00:21
Oh and Paradise “Jannah” is a slave name and Malek “Angel” is a forbidden name and so on and so forth.
February:11:2010 - 00:34
Man sorry I am on an F-Bomb roll.
K Invitation Chez Moi and here are the invitees:
Prince Naif the Biggest Dick Prince Faisal Daisy Sandy Chiara anonymous DW Solomon2 Michel Oby American Bedu Me & M (who am I forgetting?)If you want to be included you can add your name
Ah And the guests of honor are King Abdullah and John Burgess
February:11:2010 - 01:01
Sparky, thanks for the invite. Interesting- I have known Saudi kids with all those names!
Anyway, while I agree- as I have stated- that I actually do think they need to work this out and let a qualified Ambassador in (if indeed the name is the only problem)- I stand by my assessment of Daisy as a racist. You can conclude, therefore, that I have inflated pride if you like. But I disagree with that as well. And I’ll add, I don’t see anyone else that appears to be acting on excessive pride either, on this matter.
Now I could go “gather” evidence for my viewpoint, but it’s all out there in black and white for anyone to find (as many have), in the form of general sweeping statements, and the specific ones about people she’s never met (like my husband and kids). And I have other stuff to do this morning rather than rediscover something I already know.
Oh, and please try not to have me over at the same time as Prince Naif. I wouldn’t be able to guarantee appropriate behavior.
February:11:2010 - 01:14
Thanks Sandy. I will put it on the confirmed list and LOL about Prince Naif…We will have Turkey for dinner.
I think and please forgive me for this and please do not be offended in that I feel that you are somehow internalizing what Daisy is saying. I do not know her except for what she comments, but the vibes I feel is that it wasn’t a personal attack on you or your family. It was more that you chose to interpret it that way. I am not going to tell or dictate how someone should feel though that is other people’s jobs like repressive governments. Peace
February:11:2010 - 03:05
I am not offended. And please do not be offended when I say that I think you are giving someone a pass because you are fed up with the inane defense of some indefensible Saudi practices and you appreciate someone who tells it like it is, and so interpret their other comments as an example of that- which granted, they sometimes are.
Suffice it to say, I get different vibes. But of course vibes, expecially over the internet are tricky things and people are multi-faceted, so of course people will have different opinions and we should all be entitled to that, of course.
Also, I did not mean to presume that you wanted me to behave at dinner. Maybe you don’t? Either way, you know what to do
February:11:2010 - 04:12
Sandy, you summed up very well in your first paragraph my feelings. I tend to try to give everyone a pass even if I don’t like it. I am glad I have given such passes because it has shaped, reshaped and still shapes me. I do not want to be stagnant.
I will carve the Turkey at dinner with my electric carver. I would presume none of the people on the invitee list would be behaving. All would be misbehaving in their own deviant ways. Ha HA Ha Evil chuckles.
February:11:2010 - 04:39
Sparky!!!!!!!!
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Back and sparkling brightly again!
Haven’t seen you for a while, but I have been remiss in keeping up wit x-roads Arabia.
Sorry John, busy, busy busy!
I would have thought that a name like ”Biggest Dick” would inspire special respect in KSA…
As they are so focused on dicks.
It’s probably jealousy. I bet they dislike having to deal with some guy who is just an inferior foreigner and yet has the biggest dick. It would mean they’d have to have them out before each meeting and establish who really has the biggest before they could get on with diplomatic business.
And what if he really does have the biggest? That would be so insulting! What if the Saudi wives found out that their Saudi hubbies do not have the biggest dick? Imagine! The women would loose all respect, they would start to drive cars themselves, get jobs, earn their own money, gain independence and kick their Saudi drones out! The muttawa would be beaten up by women when they harass them because the women now know that Saudi blokes (and especially muttawa’s)don’t have the biggest dicks, and worst of all: The Saudi women might start to look across the borders for better (and bigger) husbands!!!!
The whole fabric of Saudi society would topple if they let this guy in!
It’s perfectly understandable they want to keep him out!!!
February:11:2010 - 05:36
Sparky–thank you for the invitation.
I, for one, do not think Daisy is an ignorant racist, I think her comments are often broad generalizations, elliptical, and unsubstantiated observations/recommendations about Saudi Arabia, to the point of obsessive repetition with minor variation in theme and content.
I have no doubt the Turkey will be delicious, and the company interesting! Thanks again.:)
February:11:2010 - 06:50
Sparky,
Big thanks for your support and for that gorgeous dinner invitation! I would love to have a turkey dinner.
Now you are tempting me to break my resolve not to go to Saudi Arabia!
You are right, it was never my intention to attack Sandy’s husband and sons – she has taken it that way.
Ask them what they think of “Aaftab” as a name – that’s Arabic for sun, as you may be aware. Not really religious, but widely used in Urdu poetry and hence, a popular name. It’s extended and implied meaning is “illustrious and handsome.”
And Miangul Akbar Zeb/Zaib means a very beautiful flower.
John, did you already know the meaning when you wrote the title of this post?
Aafke,
Thanks, You had me in splits of laughter!
February:11:2010 - 06:54
I may visit Tunisia someday, before it becomes completely “Saudi-ised.”
February:11:2010 - 07:23
Chiara,
Perhaps you too should spend a few months living in Saudi Arabia – not in a cocooned foreigners’ compound but in a residential area where ordinary Saudis live.
I am saying it in good faith and not by way of argument, so take it in good faith.
February:11:2010 - 07:53
Daisy #110 and #111–”Aaftab” doesn’t come up as “sun” in any Arabic-English dictionary I have consulted. Do you have a reference?
Tunisia would be a lovely place to visit, but quite distinct geographically and culturally from Saudi Arabia. Bahrain, Qatar, and the UAE would all share more khaleeji cultural similarities, as opposed to Tunisia’s Maghrebi, and French ones.
Religiously, like the other countries of the Maghreb, Tunisia follows the Maliki, not the Hanbali fiqh of the Gulf, and only follows Sharia family law, not any other form of Sharia law. Even then, Tunisia has been a leader in progressive interpretations of the Mudwana, the opposite of Saudi. Salafism has made some inroads but not all salafists are oppressive, or terrorists as the Tunisians themselves have stated. They remain a small minority of the 99% Muslim population.
Hijab is forbidden in government offices–quite the opposite of the situation in Saudi. Habib Bourguiba, the 1st President post-Independence from France, and one of the leaders of the movement for independence, was also a reformer, especially in his early years. The country still bears the mark of his leadership.
So, while Arab and Muslim, Tunisia would not be the best comparison point for Saudi, but still better than none; and, the beaches are beautiful, the people very nice, and the food is great.
Daisy #112–I make no claims to ever having lived in Saudi, though I have stated that if I were to do so it would be in Jeddah most likely, and on a professional contract, usually of 2+ years duration. I don’t cocoon anywhere, and have never lived in a foreigner’s compound. I would assume that professional duties and my own choices would put me in contact with the Saudi Saudi, not to mention the invitations I have already from a Jeddan friend and his female family members. I have lived and worked in an Arab Muslim country/context (with the inlaws) and traveled to the Middle East (Iran) where I was in contact with the professionals of that country, and wore hijab. Not the same of course, but a start.
February:11:2010 - 08:56
Aafke…OMG you are so the list.
And you brought up a very pertinent point that I had been pondering for some time. I wonder how the males would deal with knowing their mates may have to consult or interact with the Biggest Dick in Saudi Arabia. That would be very unsettling for them.
Love ya chicky
February:11:2010 - 09:42
To exactly quote you Daisy,
“Sandy,
That kind of response was obvious from your family, since they are not aware of the actual meaning of this name. This is not surprising, it was only expected. It only attests to what I have been saying that the Arabs are not exposed to other people’s cultures.”
It isn’t so much about how I interpret, but rather about what you actually said.
This one was more personal, but this is by no means the first time you say things about people on these boards and then not own your own words. Whatever.
February:11:2010 - 09:46
I know ‘Aaftab’ only as a given name in India. And no, I wasn’t aware of Mr. Zeb’s name’s meaning. I was only riffing on ‘Romeo & Juliet’.
February:11:2010 - 10:38
John,
I thought it was from Romeo and Juliet, but it turned out to be a coincidence!
I imagine that Aaftab should be popular in Pakistan too, though don’t know for sure.
Chiara,
Sorry, I just checked – Aaftab is again Persian, not Arabic. But it’s a very elegant name. If one understands the Urdu poetry in original, its elegance comes through.
Thanks for that detailed overview of different countries in those regions. Tunisia appeals to me precisely because it has attempted to merge so many cultures and made a modernistic interpretation of Islam. Besides, I have a weakness for the sea and good food.
I know all Salafists are not terrorists and there are many likeable aspects of Saudi and related cultures, but it’s just that I can’t live in an orthodox environment – not even in India. I am just not made that way. Many women can, but I can’t.
February:11:2010 - 11:31
Daisy–No problem. You are welcome, and Tunisia is high on my list of places to visit as well, for similar reasons. While I am not sure I am well-suited to living in a highly conservative environment (or even the conservative ones within Canada), I have had the opportunity to travel, study, live or work in a number of repressive regimes. Uniformly the people themselves are very humane, know of their government’s and culture’s failings, know a lot more than they are able to say overtly, give hints covertly to the trusted, and for the most part go on about their lives with the same priorities as the rest of the world does: study, work, income, family, social life, etc.
I am sure you would enjoy travelling in MENA, and I hope you are living in a more liberal environment in India than some others.
February:11:2010 - 11:52
Tunisia is a very interesting case and Habib Bourguiba made it especially so. He sought to be a ‘new Ataturk’, forceably separating church and state. He succeeded to some extent, but went to far in some regards and is not considered a good guy in the Salafist book. As Ataturk, but some 30 years later, he used the power of the state (including police and secret police) to enforce his vision. That made a lot of enemies. He probably stuck around too long in office, too. He’d just recently died by the time I got to Tunisia, and his legacy was coming under considerable pressure.
Tunisians, as all other people, are generally great, and there are exceptions. But it was the Middle Eastern country that I least enjoyed and was most happy to leave. Lots to do and see there and the food is incomparable (even better than Moroccan, in my book). But there was an attitude of ‘let somebody else take care of it’ that I found very annoying.
February:11:2010 - 12:45
Chiara,
Yes I have been fortunate to have lived in a liberal atmosphere all my life. There can be very orthodox environments in India too, but I’ve never had to face them. I know people in most countries are good regardless of the kind of governments that exist there.
John,
Yes, Tunisian government is criticised for suppressing dissent. I just read a BBC report about it. I can see why the Salafists didn’t like Bourguiba.
That’s called a laidback attitude. Very similar to the Indian mindset! But it seems they have made good economic progress. Their development profile seems to be better than that of India.
February:11:2010 - 16:17
I’m all for ‘easy going’, but it can reach extremes. I recall–several times, actually–taking a taxi in Tunis. Traffic would get heavy and the driver would say, ‘The hell with it. Get out. I’m going home. I don’t need to deal with this mess.’ That takes dolce far niente just a bit too far, IMO.
February:11:2010 - 21:59
John,
You are right. That’s downright unprofessional. I used to think only Indian taxi drivers are rude and unethical! Even they don’t tell a passenger to get out of the taxi. But how did they make a living working in that fashion? And what about the police? Couldn’t you threaten to report the taxi driver to the police?
February:12:2010 - 03:46
@Daisy
I do realize that most Indians (almost all South Asians) in Saudi are little more than indentured servants with sub-subsistence salaries. I am an Evil Saudi, after all. I’m not arguing that at all. What I am arguing is the notion that the government would reject him out of jealousy of his high credentials then cleverly disguise it as dispute over his name, that’s just … out there.
Oh, and Saudi Arabia isn’t that bad. I may be an Evil Saudi, but I’m of Indonesian descent, so I get discriminated against with the best of them (my favorite: Why are you wearing a thobe? What?? You’re Saudi?!), so I have front row seats. Yes there’s racism here, but it’s not nearly as bad as you describe. Do come for a visit. I’ll treat you to a camel burger
February:12:2010 - 05:19
M,
I only read that on the Internet and I said some people wrote this. It may not be jealousy after all.
I know you are of Indonesian origin – I have seen your blog which is quite good. But I thought your ancestors might have married into Saudi families and hence, you may look enough like a Saudi not to get those responses. Your comments show that you identify yourself as a Saudi, not as Indonesian. And you agree that even you get discriminated against.
Nowadays I am getting lots of invitations to have delicious meals in Saudi Arabia! Thanks for your invitation. I am sure the people there are quite hospitable and there are some very good aspects of Saudi Arabia.
February:12:2010 - 11:24
John–yes Habib Bourguiba overstayed his usefulness, and like Senghor, basically had to be removed. Hmmm preference for Tunisian over Moroccan, someone must like harissa! (I like both cuisines).
Daisy #120–I’m glad.
M #123–Why didn’t you say you were Saudi Jawa??!! I have been looking for you! I didn’t realize that litte M hid your blog.
Please email me at chiaraazlinquestion AT yahoo.com
February:12:2010 - 13:00
Oh, I love Moroccan food too! I had a Moroccan cook in Riyadh who spoiled everyone. In fact, I had a hard time keeping her as many others wanted to hire her away, out from under me.
It’s a purely personal valuation, but I think the Tunisians did a better job of merging French and N. African cuisines. I do love harissa, but I also like Ras al-Hanout. And khley is something I grew inordinately fond of. Sure wish I had a source for that now…
February:12:2010 - 15:06
There is harissa in Saudi and it is horrible. It pails in comparison to jareesh. My mother in law used to like making harissa with chicken of course and she topped it with tons of powedered cinnamon.
Torture. Those were the days I wondered how I ended up in Saudi and who abducted me.
February:12:2010 - 15:21
Actually, I’m wondering which harrisa is being discussed! There’s the rather heavy main dish and then there’s the garlic/chili pepper condiment. I do like them both, but only have the spicy one in stock at the moment.
February:12:2010 - 19:50
My mouth is watering now – of course I love pepper and all spices!
Not to mention garlic and chilli – the latter is supposed to have come to India from Latin America with the Portuguese, but no Indian will agree to that theory. It’s hard to imagine Indian food without chilli.
Tunisia not only has great food and great beaches, it has some of the greatest ancient archaeological sites, including Carthage.
Besides, I was just looking at their laws. Their laws relating to women and civil rights are quite impressive – they compare with any democratic country in the world – http://www.tunisiaonline.com/women/index.html. Women’s role in Tunisian public life is significant. In fact, their constitution also guarantees freedom of expression, but the ruling power has unconstitutionally hijacked that right to establish its long rule that gets “99.9%” votes. It seems that’s one of the few maladies they have, though a significant one.
If I go there, I’ll have to remember not to criticise the authorities – a tall order for Indians, who are born critics of every kind of authority under the sun! They consider criticism as their birthright.
February:12:2010 - 20:21
Greetings. First time visitor to the site, and felt the need to comment on this poor fellow, and some of the subsequent back and forth from the followers.
First off, some basic facts. I’m American, mono-lingual (English), currently residing in Saudi Arabia as an EFL (English as a Foreign Language) teacher. Also, I was born Muslim, in America, grew up in America, have traveled somewhat, but this is my first time living overseas for an extended period.
Now that’s been addressed, let me make an extended comment about the code-switching, false-friends, Daisy-insistent-on-some-need-for-automatic-translation-by-all-people-in-the-world, issue.
My first name is Shaari. It’s Malay. Guess how many Americans regularly speak Malay? Yeah, not many. It doesn’t (as far as I know) have a cool meaning of any kind, but is somewhat common in Malaysia. Amusingly, it does have a meaning in Hebrew, I guess, as they are synagogues with the same spelling. Hee!
Anyway, while growing up, all I heard was the following variations on my name.
Sherry
Cherie
Cherry
Charlie
Share-rey
Shih-ree
Those were just the most common variations, there were plenty more, including some that had no correlation with my name at all, other than the initial letter. (My name, by the way, is said by me, as Sha-ree. Two syllables. Not terribly difficult.)
The oddest variations, interestingly, were always at hospitals, doctors offices or the like, where my name had been written down and the speaker had not heard it pronounced. Additionally, despite the fact that my gender was regularly written on my medical information, people regularly refused to believe that _I_ was the “female” they were expecting to see, based on my name. (I’m male.)
My point is this:
Based on my personal experiences, I would argue that mono-linguals, upon hearing a strange name, automatically and invariably attempt to find something within their language to associate it to, regardless of how close the end result _actually_ is. I expect that the honorable Ambassador would suffer no end of grief due to the linguistic associations of his name in Arabic, and (as others more eloquent than myself have pointed out already) it would likely hamper his mission to represent his government. It’s awfully hard to treat someone seriously when you’re internally laughing at them.
Anyway, that’s what I had to say.
February:13:2010 - 00:44
Shaari: Welcome! Thanks for your thoughts and sharing your experience.
February:13:2010 - 03:09
Shaari,
Thanks for your explanations. I understand the logic of your argument. Just a minor correction – I did say above that an Ambassador doesn’t mix with all people. He mixes only with some well-educated people, most of them belonging to the upper classes of the society. I understand that all people can’t have the perspective to ask what his name really means, but the small group of educated people with whom an Ambassador mingles, should have this perspective. I feel that’s not asking for too much.
I said more or less exactly what you have explained in a much more gentlemanly fashion than me that this issue has arisen out of monolingualism.
I can give you a comparison with myself. Daisy is my nickname; my official name is something else. When I was in London, people did pronounce my name wrongly but they also asked me how I pronounced it and tried to correct themselves.
This was despite the fact that I never told them they were pronouncing it wrongly – it came automatically to them.
When they asked me to give a talk to the Indian students in London, who had been born and brought up there and were obviously fluent in English, they asked me in which language I would like to speak. I was quite bewildered at this question and said, “In English, of course!” After all, this was England, the land of English, wasn’t it? But they said I could speak in Hindi if I wanted, because the British-Indian students may prefer it that way. But I spoke in English, as that’s the language I have been educated in and I felt the British-Indian students would be more comfortable listening to a talk in English.
These kinds of exchanges come from the multicultural and multilingual environment of London. That’s what I feel about it. That’s why I suggested that the Arabs should learn three languages from three different cultures.
And why do you think I am using my nickname on these blogs and not my official name? It’s because I know Daisy will be easier for the people here.
February:13:2010 - 03:23
@Daisy
Oh I’m pretty much from pure Indonesian descent. My father immigrated here when he was little. My mother’s family have been in Saudi a bit longer, but have mostly “kept in the family”. Though if the stories are true my mother’s family are direct descendants of Arab immigrants who settled in Indonesia who are themselves descendants of the prophet Mohammed fleeing the prosecution of the Ummayad caliphate. But that’s a claim a lot of families are making, so who knows?
@Chiara
Curses! My disguise has been compromised!! *disappears in hail of smoke*
Sending you an email now.
February:13:2010 - 04:38
I want to clarify that my above comparison is not to denigrate American society in any way. I have a lot of respect for the US. I talked about it only to show what kind of influences a multilingual environment has on people.
M,
I understand perfectly.
February:13:2010 - 07:07
M–Got it! Thanks, I will reply post-hockey game (nephew’s, auntilary obligations and all).