Comments on: Forward? Backward? Sideways? Spinning in Place?

By: Daisy

Daisy — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:18:42 +0000

John,
Thanks for that clarification!
About Saudi Arabia being the leader of the Islamic world, perhaps on a conceptual level, that’s right. But if the US really wants to speak to the Islamc world, I feel it shouldn’t rely on Saudi Arabia too much as a spokesperson. For example, you of course know that the majority of Muslim population lives not in the Arab world but in South Asia and South-East Asia – the regions where Muslims follow completely different sets of norms and even widely different versions of Islam. It does seem that they tend to relate to their immediate non-Muslim population much more than to Saudi Arabia – not only because of cultural differences, but also because of the shabby way in which Saudi Arabia has been treating them. By relating to Arab Muslims, one would in fact be relating to only a small population of Muslims. Hence, it makes better sense to have a dialogue with these various populations directly through their governments or other agencies working with them, rather than making Saudi Arabia their spokesperson. Their ways are in fact very different from those of Saudi Arabia and they may not necessarily agree with Saudi Arabia on everything. Much of terrorism also comes from South Asia and West Asia, so there needs to be different dialogues for different regions.

I am sure American experts have considered all this and much more, but your remark just set me thinking.

By: Michel

Michel — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:08:06 +0000

Just to answer Daisy’s question about what Haya means;I think its meaning is “Organization, Body”; whoever knows Arabic more than me (and that’s not too difficult) is welcome to comment/correct my understanding.

By: John Burgess

John Burgess — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:21:07 +0000

Asmaa, thanks for clearing that up! I’m doubly unequipped to comment from first-hand experience.

I am sorry, though, to hear that such officiousness reigns in Mecca and Medina.

By: John Burgess

John Burgess — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:15:28 +0000

The US isn’t silent on the issue(s) of Saudi human rights violations. Note the annual reports on Human Trafficking, Religious Freedom, Women & Children, and plain old Human Rights.

I think a policy decision has been made, however, not to ignore these issues, but to pressure the Saudis without over-pressuring the Saudis. Harping at them is counterproductive and feeds those conservatives who jump up and say, “See, this reform is all due to foreign pressure!” That undercuts the reformers.

People will differ on just where the line between pressure and over-pressure is to be found, of course…

By: Asmaa

Asmaa — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:49:04 +0000

hullo!
just to clear things up, the ladies working at the Haram belong to a mosque committee thing, there is one in the Makkah Haram and one in the Madina Haram. they are given an official government job and have an office in the Haram inside the mosque, to which i have been to on a good number of occasions. since i keep my iPod in my bag and iPods and camera phones are not allowed into the mosque. they go through my bag every time as i enter the mosque.

i tried explaining once that having an iPod in my bag doesn’t mean i’ll listen to music in the mosque. but having my face uncovered is apparently a sure sign that i have a great devil worshiping potential and should never be given the benefit of her doubt.

By: Daisy

Daisy — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:22:33 +0000

OK, the Haya may not be delivering the punishments and the US has even greater inetersts in Saudi Arabia than just oil, but the end result is that the human rights conditions there are deplorable and no one is going to say anything about it – least of all the US because it will hurt its tripartite interests.

I really have to see their new legal code to see how much they have really improved or if it’s just an eyewash like having women to enforce draconian rules against women themselves.

So the Saudi citizens, the foreign visitors as well as the Third World workers have to keep on going through this vicious circle of abuses because it hurts everyone’s interests to speak against it.

Well, at least I know some Indians who have refused to take up a job in Saudi Arabia – they would rather be unemployed in India than get exploited there. I sincerely hope more Indians join their school of thought.

Why speak against human rights violations in other parts of the world then? Why not just let every country do whatever it wants to do? What’s the need to talk about democracy, equality, tolerance for others etc.?

By: John Burgess

John Burgess — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:26:53 +0000

Well, Saudi Arabia is, in fact, in process of reforming its laws. Among those reforms will be a codification of laws, excepting those crimes about which the Quran speaks specifically and directly, e.g. the hadd crimes like murder. If nothing else, this should put the Haya on a shorter leash.

At present, the Haya can make ones life miserable and complicated. As they lack law-enforcement powers, they are not among the worst possible offenders of civil rights. I certainly don’t want them in my neighborhood, but lots of Saudis think they help keep their neighborhoods better.

I won’t (can’t) speak for other countries, but oil is only third on the list of why the US wants good relations with the KSA. First comes the Saudi ability to speak to the Islamic world. If the Saudi buy into a US policy, it becomes much easier to sell in other countries. Second, the KSA is generous with overflight permissions. Without those, the US military would have very serious problems in addressing issues to the east.

I’ll look for a better solution for editing.

By: Daisy

Daisy — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:49:14 +0000

The way I see it, if lots of Saudis think the religious police is not doing it hard enough and that this system should exist at all, Saudis should be condemned and be banned from benefitting from any opportunities outside the KSA, unless the Saudi government reforms its laws. If they are not human, they need not get any humane treatment from the world.

As I said, you can buy your oil from Russia till KSA mends its ways.

I certainly hope we’ll be talking not on this blog as you say, if only that can be possible. But you may also write a post on “Saudis and when in Rome.” Unless you live in the KSA I don’t see how you can get into trouble.

Sparky is right, it’s very difficult to edit with this software – the text keeps on shifting all the time.

By: John Burgess

John Burgess — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:24:34 +0000

I don’t think I ever joined the Religious Police Fan Club! I think they’re a useless exercise in state power, no question about it.

I, however, am not Saudi. I do know that there are lots of Saudis whose only criticism of the Haya is that they’re not doing it hard enough!

Sometime when we’re talking, not on this blog, I’ll tell you a few stories about Saudis not getting the ‘When in Rome’ business…

By: John Burgess

John Burgess — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:22:17 +0000

The short answer is, ‘Both.’ While those whose families sent them tend to bring family values, and there’s clearly a disposition toward the more liberal side if you’re sending your daughter abroad, not all of them were at all liberal. They went to the US for an education, not a cultural experience.