I was referring to this: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/7491/550#REF3

It is written by a public health specialist who reinforces the need for accurate body counts, and supports the methodology of http://www.iraqbodycount.org/, which includes multiple verified sources, “Data is drawn from cross-checked media reports, hospital, morgue, NGO and official figures to produce a credible record of known deaths and incidents.” The Western Standard article seems to support that source as well. As the BMJ points out these numbers are higher that those of the US or UK non-counting method:

“Instead the UK government’s policy was first not to count at all, and then to rely publicly on extremely limited data available from the Iraqi Ministry of Health. This follows US government policy; famously encapsulated by General Tommy Franks of the US Central Command “We don’t do body counts.”2″

There were 2 Lancet reports, the second is the most widely discredited.

I apologize if I mislead anyone by the use of the term “morgue”. I didn’t mean it in the keep them on ice indefinitely sense, or even the full autopsy sense, but only the place where bodies are collected officially and identified. I am aware of Muslim burial practices so wouldn’t expect bodies to be held beyond the minimum time necessary for identification and return.

Dr friends from MENA rely on reports from hospitals where their friends are working to more accurately assess the death toll of the latest government crackdown on whomever. These include accurate records of who was treated for what and died, and who was brought in dead from what cause. These types of records have also been accessed by other insiders and made available to appropriate outsiders.

The article on the dead overstayers found in the street is interesting, but it seems to me not relevent to this situation where one can expect death by drowning, and trauma ie found bodies in crashed cars, drying terrain etc, so they can be counted, whether they were there as legals, or illegals.

I certainly wouldn’t underestimate any country’s desire to minimize death tolls, especially in these circumstances, nor that of an absolute monarchy to do so. But someone always knows and the information usually leaks at some point in history (as defined accurately by John–usually considered to be from the time of writing, although much of that records oral history).

Well I hope you guys are willing to take credit for the amazing successes of the administration you voted for (twice)

@anonymous,

I think we are seeing some of the “amazing successes” play out in the region now. It wasn’t pretty, but invading Iraq and providing the groundwork for some semblance of a democracy to take root in the region has opened things up. The radical ideas are slowly getting pushed aside and the more moderate voices are feeling free to express themselves. Do you honestly believe that had we elected Kerry with his “global test” position on Iraq that we would have implemented the “surge” and seen its subsequent success? It’s evident to me that some bloggers, reporters, politicians, and regular everyday people in the region feel slightly more free to speak their mind against those that lord over them. This wouldn’t happen if Iraq had failed. Bush is directly responsible for freeing people. He’ll get credit for it one day.

Bush admits to reading Natan Sharansky’s “The Case for Democracy” and having it shape his world view. It’s a good book that explains how a dissident in a “fear society” is emboldened by a freedom minded US policy. Every tyrannical regime in the world wanted Bush to fail in Iraq. Why do you think that was?

Does that include the Kurds gassed with weapons made with the help of the 700+ export licenses for pre-cursor agents granted under Reagan went he wanted Saddam to use WMDs against the Iranians?

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/74038683.html?dids=74038683:74038683&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&fmac=&date=Jul+22%2C+1992&author=R.+Jeffrey+Smith&desc=Dozens+of+U.S.+Items+Used+in+Iraq+Arms

And the media then later uses this as a “smoking gun” of proof of WMDs?? Expired Sarin gas from the Reagan era packed in Howitzer shells?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/19/opinion/sarin-what-sarin.html

So Saddam decided to use the WMDs the US helped him build against “his own people”; If you arm a despot, you can’t make judgments later about which people he is supposed to used those weapons against, He’s a despot! Why were we arming him with ILLEGAL WMDs in the first place? This only makes sense if you adhere to the tired old “Greatest Generation” and “Baby Boomer” mentality of the enemy of my enemy is my friend: gas Iranians but not the Kurds.

Detente is a failed Cold War idiocy. And to used it to divert our attention from those who took down the Towers is a treacherous policy.

And don’t get me started about no-bid arms contracts, or how private armed (US and British) contractors were used to make things worse, with the audacity of bossing American soldiers around.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/contractors/highrisk.html

For shame!

Sad to say, as soon as they could Louisiana and New Orleans made reconstruction as murky as possible, limiting critical information and responsibility to Louisianans only. No heads rolled, not even the mayor’s. Thus IMO there is no assurance that if another hurricane hits N.O. the city won’t experience exactly the same results as before.

Consider how many Iraqis Saddam executed every year (10,000?) to during his 24-year reign as supreme leader, and think of the hundreds of thousands (lowest estimate: 140,000) of Iraqis who died during his wars – all to secure his power as dictator. It might help you feel better.

I won’t argue at all about Medicare. On Katrina, I think blame starts at the Mayor’s office (funny how that works!), then moves to the State government, and lastly to FEMA and the federal government. The photo of the hundreds of New Orleans school buses sitting under water while thousands were stranded in the city really inflames me. The fact that the Mayor couldn’t put his own evacuation plan into effect irks me to no end.

LOL! Try going up to a Saudi morgue to check the records.

@Sparky: “That aside, I never bought into his case for invading Iraq which made me basically hate him because I don’t like being played and lied to.”

Yes, I agree. I don’t like being lied to, or played.

@John: “I think he erred in invading Iraq, too.”

Yes, big err. Not as big as Medicare Prescription Drug Modernization Act or Katrina, but an err nonetheless. Bush wasn’t the problem; the problem was the party platform. In a “lesser of two evils” sense, that platform was worse than the one running against it. This isn’t about people; it’s about policy. I assumed you knew that until you said “better than the two men he was running against” which indicates that you engaged in the circus of cult of personality rather than platform. And even if you choose to focus on personalities; Bush was and is a dauphin, steered by a greater evil.

I think he erred in invading Iraq, too. I said that officially from Riyadh and still think that now that I’m no longer in State Dept.

Democracy/ Communism/ BEST RELIGION (contest)

I would list the pros and cons of both. K and then say seriously which one would most diversity thrive and people be most able to follow their beliefs….blah blah dah dee dee dah that is with the most uniquishness and democracy. I’m guessing democracy I would see a bit of communism, best religion contest and a whole lotta other stuff. In communism, I would see people saying ‘shit is this what we wanted.” IN Best Religion contest, “now that everyone is dead there isn’t anything to do.”

NIGHT