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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;I Did Not Learn to Love Life&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/</link>
	<description>Informed comment and commentary about Saudi Arabia, reform, and its relations with the US</description>
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		<title>By: Chiara</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25695</link>
		<dc:creator>Chiara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 00:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ouch! Not in the least bit vacuous. 

While all education aims to socialize its students according to the norms of the society within which they are supposed to take part, the ones in authoritarian regimes emphasize more learning and maintaining the status quo, and the Eastern ones where the society is more based on community that individuality emphasize greater harmony with the collectivity inside the classroom or out. For example, Chinese students are not taught to debate or discuss or disagree with one another, and certainly not with what they think the teacher wants to hear. This is a challenge for all Western profs and particularly American ones. It was more marked under Mao when &quot;debate&quot; consisted of agreement and one upping each other with little Red book quotations, or Lin Biao bashing. It is still prevalent in universities in Hong Kong, leaving out the massive amounts of memorization and regurgitation in earlier years.

From what I have heard and read the schools in Arabic countries including Saudi emphasize rote learning and aren&#039;t big on debate and dissent, and certainly not from the authority figures inside or outside the classroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ouch! Not in the least bit vacuous. </p>
<p>While all education aims to socialize its students according to the norms of the society within which they are supposed to take part, the ones in authoritarian regimes emphasize more learning and maintaining the status quo, and the Eastern ones where the society is more based on community that individuality emphasize greater harmony with the collectivity inside the classroom or out. For example, Chinese students are not taught to debate or discuss or disagree with one another, and certainly not with what they think the teacher wants to hear. This is a challenge for all Western profs and particularly American ones. It was more marked under Mao when &#8220;debate&#8221; consisted of agreement and one upping each other with little Red book quotations, or Lin Biao bashing. It is still prevalent in universities in Hong Kong, leaving out the massive amounts of memorization and regurgitation in earlier years.</p>
<p>From what I have heard and read the schools in Arabic countries including Saudi emphasize rote learning and aren&#8217;t big on debate and dissent, and certainly not from the authority figures inside or outside the classroom.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25691</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think that&#039;s a largely vacuous phrase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s a largely vacuous phrase.</p>
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		<title>By: Solomon2</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25690</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And &quot;harmonization with the status quo and the collectivity&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And &#8220;harmonization with the status quo and the collectivity&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Chiara</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25688</link>
		<dc:creator>Chiara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have to agree that critical thinking skills can be acquired progressively and later. Children are naturally questioning, and most don&#039;t fully lose that capacity although they may not have resources to develop them formally. Most observe events and changes over time and develop a critical capacity in that manner if not in formal training.

While I also had a high school education that emphasized critical thinking, it is often said that university is a time of unlearning everything you thought you knew.

If there were no critical thinkers in authoritarian regimes where would the revolutionaries come from?

I think &quot;Arabs&quot; need what everyone else needs from an education which is a knowledge base, analytical skills, and the tools for ongoing learning and questioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree that critical thinking skills can be acquired progressively and later. Children are naturally questioning, and most don&#8217;t fully lose that capacity although they may not have resources to develop them formally. Most observe events and changes over time and develop a critical capacity in that manner if not in formal training.</p>
<p>While I also had a high school education that emphasized critical thinking, it is often said that university is a time of unlearning everything you thought you knew.</p>
<p>If there were no critical thinkers in authoritarian regimes where would the revolutionaries come from?</p>
<p>I think &#8220;Arabs&#8221; need what everyone else needs from an education which is a knowledge base, analytical skills, and the tools for ongoing learning and questioning.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25687</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;d strongly disagree with you assertion that early beliefs are immune to later-acquired critical thinking skills. I think universities stand as a pretty clear example of how that doesn&#039;t work. Sure, some draw back into their shells, throw up a wall of denial and reticence, but most re-evaluate the &#039;givens&#039; of their earlier lives. It doesn&#039;t have to wait for university, though. I recall courses in high school that called for re-evaluations of things I&#039;d be taught or otherwise learned. I don&#039;t think I&#039;m unique in this regard!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d strongly disagree with you assertion that early beliefs are immune to later-acquired critical thinking skills. I think universities stand as a pretty clear example of how that doesn&#8217;t work. Sure, some draw back into their shells, throw up a wall of denial and reticence, but most re-evaluate the &#8216;givens&#8217; of their earlier lives. It doesn&#8217;t have to wait for university, though. I recall courses in high school that called for re-evaluations of things I&#8217;d be taught or otherwise learned. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m unique in this regard!</p>
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		<title>By: Solomon2</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25686</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Without critical skills, whatever is learned by rote becomes part of one&#039;s identity, does it not?  So when critical skills are only developed later in life, people will be apt to use them only to evaluate new information - and that tendency will exist in proportion to a person&#039;s pride. In your opinion, is this really what Arabs need?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without critical skills, whatever is learned by rote becomes part of one&#8217;s identity, does it not?  So when critical skills are only developed later in life, people will be apt to use them only to evaluate new information &#8211; and that tendency will exist in proportion to a person&#8217;s pride. In your opinion, is this really what Arabs need?</p>
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		<title>By: Chiara</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25683</link>
		<dc:creator>Chiara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It seems to me that rote learning and de-emphasizing individual critical thinking are a part of all traditional, including Eastern pedagogical programs.  They emphasis is more on knowledge of and harmonization with the status quo and the collectivity than individual analytic and critical skills. However, people often have those skills or develop them through lived experience, whether they are comfortable to voice them or not.

In my experience of doing therapy with people from a variety of backgrounds the similarities are greater than the differences but one does need to be aware of linguistic and cultural nuance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that rote learning and de-emphasizing individual critical thinking are a part of all traditional, including Eastern pedagogical programs.  They emphasis is more on knowledge of and harmonization with the status quo and the collectivity than individual analytic and critical skills. However, people often have those skills or develop them through lived experience, whether they are comfortable to voice them or not.</p>
<p>In my experience of doing therapy with people from a variety of backgrounds the similarities are greater than the differences but one does need to be aware of linguistic and cultural nuance.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25680</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t connect King Abdullah with Saudi education, prior to his ascent to the throne. His bailiwick was the National Guard. He certainly made sure that schools were built to service National Guard families, but I really can&#039;t recall any direct role in education &lt;em&gt;per se&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t connect King Abdullah with Saudi education, prior to his ascent to the throne. His bailiwick was the National Guard. He certainly made sure that schools were built to service National Guard families, but I really can&#8217;t recall any direct role in education <em>per se</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Solomon2</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25678</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;- many others, have been reduced to not having good thinking skills and are unable to analyze complex situations. This leaves them open to being exploited, by con men and by extremists. Again, I’m not unique in making this assessment. It’s one that King Abdullah has spoken about.&lt;/i&gt;

The level of frustration among such people must be incredible.  Very easy, I suppose, to re-direct such ill-adjusted youth towards committing violence against non-Muslims.  

Yet my understanding is that Abdullah has had a hand in directing Saudi education for over forty years.  So why should we think this isn&#039;t this the result he wants?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>- many others, have been reduced to not having good thinking skills and are unable to analyze complex situations. This leaves them open to being exploited, by con men and by extremists. Again, I’m not unique in making this assessment. It’s one that King Abdullah has spoken about.</i></p>
<p>The level of frustration among such people must be incredible.  Very easy, I suppose, to re-direct such ill-adjusted youth towards committing violence against non-Muslims.  </p>
<p>Yet my understanding is that Abdullah has had a hand in directing Saudi education for over forty years.  So why should we think this isn&#8217;t this the result he wants?</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2009/11/21/i-did-not-learn-to-love-life/comment-page-2/#comment-25671</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Some Saudis are among the smartest and classiest people I&#039;ve ever met. Others are among the dumbest. But that goes for every nationality and ethnic group I&#039;ve encountered. People are people, with a huge variation of behaviors among them. Remember, &#039;Average&#039; is exactly that and there are people way out there on both ends of the scale, no matter what scale you&#039;re using.

I think the Saudi education system as a whole has been a major failure and many Saudis agree. Some have managed to make good use of it, with a lot of help from their parents. Others, many others, have been reduced to not having good thinking skills and are unable to analyze complex situations. This leaves them open to being exploited, by con men and by extremists. Again, I&#039;m not unique in making this assessment. It&#039;s one that King Abdullah has spoken about.

There are many positive things about Saudis: they are generous of spirit, have a great sense of humor, have intense feelings about things they believe in. I&#039;ve had very wonderful times in the desert with Bedouins as well as with princes. I&#039;ve also met a few Saudis who could use some urgent classes in manners and good behavior, who could take themselves a little less seriously, and who could be a bit more honest.

All of these things, though, are the pluses and negatives of all mankind. I see Saudis as fully human, prone to greatness and to meanness in equal measure, like all other humans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some Saudis are among the smartest and classiest people I&#8217;ve ever met. Others are among the dumbest. But that goes for every nationality and ethnic group I&#8217;ve encountered. People are people, with a huge variation of behaviors among them. Remember, &#8216;Average&#8217; is exactly that and there are people way out there on both ends of the scale, no matter what scale you&#8217;re using.</p>
<p>I think the Saudi education system as a whole has been a major failure and many Saudis agree. Some have managed to make good use of it, with a lot of help from their parents. Others, many others, have been reduced to not having good thinking skills and are unable to analyze complex situations. This leaves them open to being exploited, by con men and by extremists. Again, I&#8217;m not unique in making this assessment. It&#8217;s one that King Abdullah has spoken about.</p>
<p>There are many positive things about Saudis: they are generous of spirit, have a great sense of humor, have intense feelings about things they believe in. I&#8217;ve had very wonderful times in the desert with Bedouins as well as with princes. I&#8217;ve also met a few Saudis who could use some urgent classes in manners and good behavior, who could take themselves a little less seriously, and who could be a bit more honest.</p>
<p>All of these things, though, are the pluses and negatives of all mankind. I see Saudis as fully human, prone to greatness and to meanness in equal measure, like all other humans.</p>
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