MEMRI translates a piece from e-zine Aafaq by a reformist Saudi writer in which he tells of his upbringing in the Kingdom and how it led him to a life of extremism. The issues he raises are not new, unfortunately. The piece, at least as excerpted here, does not explain how he changed his mind.
Reformist Writer Mansour Al-Hadj:
In My Youth, I Was Taught to Love DeathIn an article in the liberal e-magazine Aafaq (www.aafaqmagazine.com ), reformist writer Mansour Al-Hadj, one of the magazine’s senior reporters, described the Islamist education he received as a youth in Saudi Arabia, which stressed the culture of death and the glorification of martyrs. The same messages, he said, were conveyed by the Islamist propaganda to which he was exposed as a university student in Sudan.
Following are excerpts from his article:
“Growing Up in Saudi Arabia, I Did Not Learn to Love Life… [But] to Love Death as a Martyr for the Sake of Allah”
“After the suicide bombings in two hotels in the Indonesian capital of Jakarta, a friend of mine said to me: ‘I think something’s wrong with the world. Why would a person blow himself up when love of life is a natural human instinct?’ I answered: ‘Love of life is a natural instinct, but love of death for the sake of Allah is a creed [in Islam], by which the believer brings himself close to the Creator of Life.
“Growing up in Saudi Arabia, I did not learn to love life. On the contrary, I learned to love death as a martyr for the sake of Allah. I was taught that love of life is a characteristic of the hypocrites [i.e. insincere Muslims], and that the ones who protect their lives most keenly are the infidels, as stated in the Koran. I also learned that one who does not participate in Jihad or prepare himself for Jihad dies a hypocrite, as stated in the hadith.
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November:21:2009 - 10:49
death cult
November:21:2009 - 10:49
^ Hater.
..and MEMRI has an agenda!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Whatever MEMRI’s agenda–and it certainly has one– this is from Arab Muslim sources. Reality.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
It is too bad that the Arab word shaheed is translated as martyr, since Christian concept of martyr (and the English meaning of martyr) does not include holy warriors. The old Catholic encyclopedia in its article about martyrs talks exclusively about those who were persecuted and killed by the old Roman empire. While there may be Muslims who are matyred for their faith, in current use almost all are at best soldiers and at worst terrorists.
That being said there was a fixation on death and the after life in the Catholic church of my youth so one cannot call Islam unique in this area. The Muslim heaven is a bit more luridly described, but the concepts are similar. I imagine that one has to thank Christian squeamishness about sex for the pallidness of the Christian heaven.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
What he is saying is damn true man. Also, I live in Saudi without bars on my windows. Listen, I do not live in flippin prison. I don’t care if a flippin haramy (thief) tries to come in. When I look out the window, I want to see the sky, the birds the trees whatever else even the walls but WITHOUT BARS.
Secondly, I said to a Saudi woman yesterday who asked me “Do you really believe Saudis did 911?” I hesitated for a while and then answered without a doubt in my voice. “YES”. She asked “Why”. I said because of the HATE that is taught here. If she had any doubts, after that statement and explanation she was also convinced. AND I told her “I don’t die for Allah. I live for him. I will die fighting for my God given rights ONLY.” K
And the only molten bronze in my ears is when the Iman or someone else in the congregation grabs the mic and starts screaming and shouting and foaming at the mouth.
This American will tell off the religious teachers at the school when they make a mistake in Arabic because I know the religion better than they do. Snap Snap and Roll of the EYES
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I’m a Saudi and was educated by the Saudi system, and whether MEMRI has an agenda or not I can tell you that what Mansour Al-Hadj wrote is true. We are bombarded by stories of martyrs and how life in the hereafter is better for them … etc. Very little mention of just enjoying life. Life, we are taught, is this dirty thing we have to endure. It is not a coincidence that so many jihadists have come from this country.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
^ I don’t like the Saudi system but i consider you a traitor.
There is nothing wrong with working for the aferlife and treating this life as temporary. sure, what “we” were taught might have been extreme but it’s not the only explanation for “terrorism”.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Well o.k. Me I have a problem when my eight year old daughter says she wants to cut Israeli necks or when I hear my friends saying their kids were taught in the schools that if a non Muslim kills a Jew they automatically become a Muslim.
A traitor? Being a traitor is not as much as a crime as fooling yourself.
Having a problem and fixing it is not treacherous! I hate a lot about the American system and will criticize what I don’t like. That doesn’t make me a traitor! If someone criticizes something, does that them a traitor?
Me get over yourself. And when you are so focused on the afterlife that you contribute nearly nothing to this life…don’t come knocking on the kuffar’s door or those Muslims who are so sinful and preoccupied with this life for what you want and need. Just think about the afterlife because you will deserve nothing from this life.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
This American will tell off the religious teachers at the school when they make a mistake in Arabic because I know
Sparky, are your children going to Saudi schools?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Solomon2 yes they do. It is not only government schools that have such hate being taught.
And thank God that I do have the balls to correct them all.
I literally don’t have balls (figure of speech). I am a female! LOL
November:21:2009 - 10:49
M is not a traitor for telling the truth. And M is right for saying “It is not a coincidence that so many jihadists have come from this country.”
Too much hate is taught. Too much intolerance. And if you are enjoying life in anyway, there is always some interpretation to make that seem sinful. I have had to do so much re-explaining over the years. Including a repetitive explanation on how it IS ok to love your grandparents- even if they are not Muslim. Nice…real nice.
It may not be the ONLY cause for terrorism- but it certainly contributed and fostered it.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
thank God that I do have the balls to correct them all.
When they enter the period of teenage rebellion against parents (as teenagers with American parents usually do) in what direction do you think they will turn? What is available to them in the KSA as an alternative?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
What’s available is reckless driving. Alcohol and drugs. Cruising and girls. If they insist on major rebellion that is. Many teens do not.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Life, we are taught, is this dirty thing we have to endure…
It is not only government schools that have such hate being taught.
Ugh! I am contemplating the life of a Saudi royal like Prince (now King) Abdullah: growing up behind walls with personal servants, first married soon after puberty, palaces stretching from Riyadh to the Riviera to Aspen to California, yachts from sailboat to luxury liner, the best cooks in the world, personal airplanes from Learjet to 747 (and no need for a passport or visa!), the means to change Rolls-Royces whenever the ashtrays are full, personal movie theaters in a land where public ones are forbidden, gold-plated bathroom fixtures, plus private pleasures nobody outside of his small circle knows about. Does he believe that “Life is this dirty thing we have to endure?”
A Saudi royal may have to deal with lots of sand, but the closest he may get to dirt is telephoning orders to subordinates who in turn direct capital investment, oil production, and a worldwide fleet of million-ton tankers.
And, of course, sparing the odd dollar or two to support schools that teach, to all his subjects who exist in relative poverty, the Wahhabi version of the “Life’s a bitch, then you die” philosophy to their subjects, who are thus directed to either sublimate their dissatisfaction, or direct their anger and aggression into the paths of hatred their education has opened for them.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Damn good speech Solomon2! I think King Abdullah is trying to undo lots that have been done; thus, I like him and I do know that although he has riches and what not he has put the brakes on a lot of the excess.
I am concerned about today and can’t worry about tomorrow. Thus, I take it one day at a time. AND my son is learning how to be gangsta fun style. He shared this me “How to be Gangster” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhPFWloYIw
AND we all wanna know why Chris Brown Beat Rihanna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIhshI34RSc
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Jerry M: Be wary of that trap. It’s not just “soldiers and terrorists” who get called martyrs. Those who die while performing Haj also get that name. So do civilians killed by Israeli bombs.
Me: teaching hatred and intolerance is not a sufficient cause behind terrorism–all Saudis would be terrorists if it were–but it is a grease that makes it easier to slide down that slope! When you categorize “the other” as less than human, how can he be accorded human rights?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
The martyr ideology in Islam is very different than in Christianity. Christians would not call someone who died in a pilgrimage a martyr. As far as those killed by Israeli bombs, it that may be fair game.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
No question that the terms mean different things to different people and religions. That’s why it’s necessary to be aware of those differences. The way the Saudis use the term is different even from the way Palestinians use it.
Note this usage in today’s Arab News.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
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November:21:2009 - 10:49
John–I agree with your comment about understanding differences in meaning between words that appear to mean the same or “false friends” as the French say.
This version of Islamic teaching does resemble some of Roman Catholicism’s more austere versions, eg the Jansenism of Quebec Catholicism before the “Quiet Revolution”.
Martyrdom in Catholicism has been expanded beyond “the blood of the martyrs” of the early church, to include those who died for their faith in other forms including those clergy killed by the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War, and the Jesuit Martyrs killed by the Hurons they had converted (not well enough it seems).
Terrorism is a tactic–anyone can be taught to use it, and to justify it as one of the few tools of asymmetrical warfare.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Terrorism is a tactic–anyone can be taught to use it -
Yes, but how many people are led to prefer to use it? If I have pictured the Saudi educational system correctly, many disaffected young males see just two choices, sublimation (what Sandy listed as driving, alcohol, drugs) or joining Al-Qaeda and Company.
You’re the psychologist, Chiara. Which is healthier for the individual, sublimation or actively working to realize one’s dreams?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
John, your reply is best and better than others. It just bothers me when “we” are the focus of the media all the time and terrorism is treated like these guys in caves woke up one day and decided to attack the usa.
note that i didn’t deny there is a problem with the saudi education system.
in islam, you work as though you were going to live forever and worship as though you were going to die today (with no focus on either). i don’t know how a non-muslim would have a problem with this concept. i even don’t see how a non-muslim could link a suicidal terrorist with the islam itself. just like these terrorists, unknowledgeable Islam critics select this concept and conclude that the religion loves death.
and yes i hate the misuse of islamic/arabic terms in western media like madrasa and jihad.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@20
you see it as two choices because the Saudi state is a dysfunctional one. if you don’t have a job..you’re soo out of luck. it’s not just the education system even if you restrict yourself to the Magic Kingdom.
Don’t forget that there was once a time when the USA benefited from this religious fervor when everyone agreed that fighting the communist soviets in Afghanistan was a good thing.
- the USA was fighting its enemy
- the fighters (many saudi) were fighting for islam against godless atheists
- the al-Sauds, by supporting the fighters, could be seen as victors of islam AAANND supporters of the USA..a win-win for them!
an this, my fellow readers, is my contribution to balance.
Muslims should set up a response to MEMRI to amplify the hateful stuff in Israeli media.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Solomon2–It seems you have set up a false dichotomous outcome from the Saudi Educational system. Since I know men who have gone through it and chosen neither addiction nor terrorism, and since the country functions at all, it would seem that there are more than just these 2 options.
Many who have despaired of other options have been “led to prefer to use” terrorism, notably, Nelson Mandela and the ANC, and the Israelis against the Brits, then the Palestinians, for example, although it seems to me some preferred it like the Stern Gang, a former member of which I know personally, and others like Mandela saw it as a method of last resort.
Sublimation is an unconscious psychological defense mechanism of transforming unacceptable wishes and impulses into a more socially and personally acceptable form, therefore alcohol, drugs, and (reckless) driving are not forms of sublimation.
To answer your question, sublimation can be a way of achieving one’s goals in a positive manner. To oppose sublimation and realization is a false dichotomy.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@Me:
See? Calling me a traitor just because I disagree with you is *exactly* the problem we’re talking about. Dehumanizing people with other ideologies, plus glorifying martyrdom as the only way out, what other result could there be?
Does it bother me that we Saudis are in the spotlight? Of course it does. But denying the core problems and spouting hate speech back at *them* only aggravates the problem and does *nothing* to solve it. We *have* to take it on the chin for now and admit to ourselves that there are some things we are doing wrong and *fix* them.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@ Me,
How am I a hater?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@25
ok..don’t focus on my calling you a traitor. i jumped to it. sorry about that.
but you didn’t say anything new. i agree with what you said but don’t just focus on the ’saudi’ side. the ‘others’ also dehumanize our extremists.
conclusion: i’ve said on this blog again and again:
everyone must look at themselves in this ‘conflict’ of ‘Islam vs West’. *BOTH* need to address their problems. this is the big picture where you can’t take some phenomenon and analyze it on its own. is that something difficult to understand?!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Me–now that I think I understand your @ system it seems your comment #23 was directed at my comment #20. In which case, I am sorry but I don’t follow what you are saying, unless 20 was a typo.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@28
oh..yeah..should be 21. sorry.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@Me.
You said everyone needs to look at themselves- but when M did that you said “traitor”. Which is a typical thing people say when they want to discredit and shut down the other person.
@Solomon2
“If I have pictured the Saudi educational system correctly, many disaffected young males see just two choices, sublimation (what Sandy listed as driving, alcohol, drugs) or joining Al-Qaeda and Company”
That would be false. The vast majority of Saudi males- do not turn into terrorists and drug addicts.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@Me
But the whole point of this blog is the Saudi side of things. I’m a Saudi, and I too am more interested in the Saudi side of the problem. Sure there are extremists everywhere, but the one that I care about and can actually have a hand (hopefully) in changing is the Saudi side.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
you see it as two choices because the Saudi state is a dysfunctional one -
It seems you have set up a false dichotomous outcome from the Saudi Educational system. Since I know men who have gone through it and chosen neither addiction nor terrorism -
Note that I was specifically talking about disaffected youths.
alcohol, drugs, and (reckless) driving are not forms of sublimation
I am corrected. These things are not “sublimation” – which you point out can be constructive – but a damaging form of escapism.
Nevertheless, my point is that those disaffected kids who seek to join Al Qaeda route may actually be making the psychologically healthier choice (for themselves as individuals) than those who choose the “alcohol, drugs, and girls” route.
My guess is that if that is to change, both the content and techniques of the Saudi educational system must change as well.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
M–excellent comments.
Solomon2–and interesting point about joining Al-Qaeda as a psychologically more acceptable outlet for disaffected youth. It is true that Islamists have made inroads among the most disaffected in other countries where the employment opportunities are low and there are a number of youth (the demographic is skewed towards the young)with little to occupy their time and minds, and with little hope for the future. The Islamists offer them a feeling of religious superiority, belonging, and purpose, as well as material help. That is one of the reasons that effectively combating extremist distortions of Islam includes teaching the moderate versions, and correcting social problems. As to “picking one’s poison” I’m not sure how easy it is to leave Al-Qaeda so maybe one of the other bad options is less awful.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Islamists offer them a feeling of religious superiority, belonging, and purpose, as well as material help.
In the U.S. plenty of religious cults offer the same thing. What may be different is that in the KSA disaffected kids choosing the Al Qaeda route will be less affected by cognitive dissonance than they would by other choices, since Al-Q fits their education and reasoning pattern.
It fits with the explanation of terror psychologists like Jerrold Post who discovered that the Al Qaeda folks not only are quite sane, but screen out the psychologically disturbed who try to join.
I’m starting to think that teaching “moderation” thus isn’t very effective, because the problem kids just feel they’re observing Islam more closely than they would otherwise. Instead, how the kids are taught must be changed. King Abdullah has a hint of what’s necessary because he pushed for KAUST, but I don’t think he really grasps the deficiency here, or that the problems start at a very young age.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@31
yeah i was about to say that. this is a ’saudi’ blog…but from an american perspective. so it is appropriate to put in the american side.
and i see you have faith in the al-Sauds. it’s nice to have dreams.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Solomon2–all “good cults” (an oxymoron if there ever was one) fit their teaching, or inculcation, to the culture of the recruitee. I doubt there is any less cognitive dissonance for Al-Qaeda recruits than for any other. Many Islamists are not in fact “disaffected” or troubled, rather they are superficially successful, while feeling in some way still excluded from society despite their achievements. This was the result of research done, especially in the UK, where there are efforts being made to redress this.
I do think that those with a good knowledge of Islam are better able to defend themselves psychologically against twists in the ideology. Most recruits, at least in the West, seem to have a poor understanding, or minimal understanding.
Since most Saudis aren’t Al-Qaeda, I doubt their schooling, whatever deficits it might have, is provoking them to join Al-Qaeda, even the disaffected ones.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
So I guess the million dollar question is that what is provoking them to joing Al-Q and like it or not all many believe Al-Q is a man made institution made by enemies of Islam to destroy it. Maybe after 50 years when no one cares anymore we will get to the bottom of it.
HOw long have you lived in Saudi, Chiara, to be such an expert on it? And where does one get such good knowlege of Islam?
Tara’s Blog or your experiment?
You and Abu Abdullah (for God’s sake Abu Adullah at least change your name if you plan on becoming some type of expert). I remember the lil blog you had going.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@37
In order:
1- Israel
2- US policy in the middle east
. unlimited support for israel
. invasions
. support for dictators (whenever convenient), Saddam, Shah of Iran, and the al-Sauds
3- suppression by the dictators of the Arab world
4- intolerant interpretation of islam
5- few job opportunities
can i have my 1 million dollars now?!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I wish I had it Me
Perhaps we can have high tea together at the globe!
AKA Satan’s Horn to those who have lost their righteous minds!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Sparky–most of your comment was tangential and off topic, so I won’t address it.
As I wrote above “while feeling in some way still excluded from society despite their achievements” seems to be one theory of why young men join violent Islamist groups.
I look forward to any other on topic insights you might have.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@Me:
Faith in the al Sauds? Where have I ever mentioned any such thing? If anything I’ve been criticizing the government and the education side of things in particular. If you’re going to troll, at least *try* to be intelligent about it.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Me, regarding #38, I have issues with your list, but you forgot the most obvious one:
6- Sexual frustration
PS… If you get the Million, can you throw a few bucks my way? This economy is tough! Worst I have ever seen.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@41
you don’t have to mention them. who do you think the government is? who do you think controls education? the ministry of education might appear in charge, but al-Saud is always there to override anything they don’t like. religion is distorted for them. history is distorted for them…and they even invent this (nationalism) subject for more loyalty.
a “saudi” “citizen” is simply a herded sheep.
@42
is that a joke? the western media loves to inflate this 72 virgins thing. so, no, i’d never put that.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I doubt their schooling, whatever deficits it might have, is provoking them to join Al-Qaeda, even the disaffected ones.
I’m thinking that in the West rote learning has its place, but we are trained both in school and in our media from a very young age to critically evaluate the information presented to us.
On the other hand, many Muslims have been trained by rote since pre-school, generally with the aim of memorizing the Koran. While this helps create kids with terrific memory skills (and thus makes it easier to learn languages like English) the teacher-is-always-right conditioning plagues people with stiff necks (nobody wants to unlearn anything) and the lack of critical skills makes people easy prey to bigoted propagandists. Prussian Germany, which employed retired soldiers as drill-emphasizing schoolmasters, had similar issues.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Sorry, some of my best friends and students are products of rote learning regimes (academic and political) and they are not lacking in critical thinking skills, although they are careful about to whom they voice them.
It seems to me that those who are products of countries where the authorities cannot be trusted have hypercritical skills, again exercising all due caution about voicing them.
The disaffected are more likely to be hypercritical.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Sorry about what, Chiara? You’ve confirmed part of this by citing the prevalent social bias.
Wouldn’t you say your acquaintances are most likely to be “hypercritical” of what they experience and see with their own eyes, rather than information that is presented to them without such a direct contradiction? It was the experience of the captive populations living under communism that they knew they were being lied to by the authorities about local conditions, but for decades they still believed what their government and teachers said about how great life in the country was as a whole and how people were starving and suffering from “spiritual pollution” (a free press) in the West.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I’m not sure those beliefs were that widespread since many escaped West. Others were in underground movements, and still others just kept their heads low and went about their lives. However, options for change in a totalitarian regime are few.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Me, and why not?
You dismiss sexuality to your peril. It is strong stuff. Note that puritan Dr Hasan was going to Nudie Bars, probably not to hand out Qurans to the girls (probably too dark in there to read anyway).
Look at the porn search stats on Google by country. What countries have the highest percentages of porn-related searches? Hint: It isn’t the immoral West.
Besides, isn’t it 70, not 72, and “virgins” is a mistranslation of the Arabic concept. But then again, what are two “women” more or less when you got 70 to tell you what to do.
I think that the gender apartheid as practiced by some Muslim societies is certainly a factor in recruiting and control of youth, and their radicalization. Such segregation also leads to other problems.
There is nothing more important in society than balance. This goes for all societies. Finding the right balance of virtue and vice is not easy. The West has certainly lost it, and you know my opinion on islamdom. Since there are so many out there promoting “goodness” and related concepts, I guess I have to stand up for vice and other moral failings (yes, a certain amount of these are needed for a healthy society!).
Viva el vicio!
Oh yes, rote learning is one thing, but indoctrination is another. There is nothing wrong with rote learning, much to the contrary. 99% of great thinkers in history learned that way. What is needed is curiosity, skepticism and intellectual freedom. These make all learning sucessful. This whole issue of “creative thinking” is just modern educational theory used to justify substandard education. There is absolutely no proof that modern methods and ideas theory lead to so-called “creative thinking.” This is just one more 5-cent term used by “educators” who can’t teach. These are the same people that are against testing because tests, although not perfect, can provide an indication of how much was learned.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@48
i’m aware of you hate of islam.
you think islam is repressive of sexuality. islam has made it very easy to marry. if that doesn’t satisfy you, you can marry more than one. if that doesn’t satisfy you, some ‘marriages’ can legally be made which are practically just sexual. the sexual practices of muhammad pbuh and his companions are also recorded.
it is some muslim societies that have complicated marriage. also, dysfunctional states have made jobless males unattractive spouses. i’m not sure how you connect Hasan’s going to nudie bars with his attack. you love to fault the faults of muslims to islam itself (hint: muslims will never be perfect).
i agree extreme gender segregation is a problem and there needs to be ‘balance’. you lack the bigger picture of islam and muslims. balance and moderation is in islam. most muslims would not accept a regime like the taliban or saudi arabia but at the same time would not accept the liberal democracies of the west.
back to my list; yes, sexual desire is potent stuff. but even if i were to consider it on my list it wouldn’t weigh much compared to the other factors.
next you’ll be telling me that the prohibition of alcohol is a factor since the islamic description of heaven includes rivers of wine.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Kactuz when the economy is bad, sex is one of the best pastimes. It’s convenient, fun and rather inexpensive (most of the time free).
I’m not a man, but I don’t think the 7o some virgins things is a motivator to become a martyr in Islam. I think perhaps it is an extra aspect to look forward to for them.
The part of the “whore” (that is their name or at least the pronunciation in Arabic…coincidence lol) being white and being able to see their veins is creepy to me and gross. But to each his own taste.
I would always ask how many men for women in Jannah and was told that it would be the husband we have in this life and that was a bit of demotivator for any potential martyrdom. LOL
November:21:2009 - 10:49
It was correctly pointed out that there are many different types of martyrs, but I was taught that only the martyr who dies fighting gets the virgins and the other fringe benefits.
I tried to edit my post but couldn’t. Thus two posts!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Me,
I make no beans of my dislike for islam. I believe islamic values are contrary to the basic ideals of freedom, equality and separation of religion and state. I believe that a simple look at islamic societies will confirm this observation. I will leave it at that.
As to the issue of Muslim sexuality (????) I think it is a factor in the rage and fustration of Muslim male youth. You have to understand that leaders and powerful men love laws and rules to control others. They have rules for everything. Rituals are a reinforcement of their rules. The more rules, the more ritual, the less morality and reason. This is true not just for islam but all religions and cults. Let me put it in another form: rules and rituals are easy, goodness is not. Rules and ritual are visible and a person gets points for them. Goodness is usually unseen and a person doesn’t get brownie points for it.
Most muslims (your words) accept the discrimination and repression of non-Muslims in Islamic societies. Most Muslims read the Quran and hadith and see no moral issues. Most Muslims do not accept the basic right of freedom of religion and expression. Most Muslims deny to others the things they want for themselves. Therefore most Muslims are hypocrites. Yeah, that is a simplification, but I could argue it pretty good in any debate. If its any consolation, let me tell you a secret: Muslims don’t have a monopoly on hipocrasy.
Anyway, that it it for now. Got to go. Tired. You, Me, take care.
K.
PS: Put sex on your list!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
@ J. “They have rules for everything. Rituals are a reinforcement of their rules. The more rules, the more ritual, the less morality and reason. This is true not just for islam but all religions and cults. Let me put it in another form: rules and rituals are easy, goodness is not. Rules and ritual are visible and a person gets points for them. Goodness is usually unseen and a person doesn’t get brownie points for it.”
While I obviously have some very fundamental differences with you-being a Muslim and all- I actually think you expressed that quite well- and I agree. Especially the “rules and rituals are easy, goodness is not.” part.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
This is the funniest and saddest and most prejudiced post I have ever read!
I’ve always thougt that our men (Saudis) are cowards and I hated that about them! I have about 56 men in my family and none of them knows how to hold a weapoen let alone owning one. Not even one of them is interesting in having one! Most of them avoid fighting and prefer to be called cowards rather than go into a fight.
From out of my family, I’ve never personally known or heard of a Saudi man or teenager who owns any sort of weapon or is part of any illiegal organization.
Men in my family and in all my friends’ families are either doctors, teachers, engineers, or businessmen. None of then was ever caught or suspected by the police except for one who wanted to lead a revolution against the Royal family…the rest of the story cannot be said. yet even his plan was not one that involves weapons or killing. It just involved revealing some truths.
Anyway ..sorry if I offended anyone..but i can find an excuse for everybody here…you’ve been brainwashed and blinded … and you haven’t met true and good Muslims…
I am glad that I’m living in Jeddah because I can go out in the middle of the night to Danube Hypermarket and buy some ice cream without being worried of being raped or stolen…
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Maha, I think you might benefit from reading more on this blog as it’s not an anti-Saudi or anti-Muslim blog.
Unlike you, I certainly have known Saudis with guns, rich ones and poor ones. That doesn’t make them bad. Gun ownership, in itself, is as neutral as owning a car. What’s done with them is the problem.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I’ve read your “about” page and liked it..I consider your posts a ver weak attempt towards understanding Saudi Arabia in an objective way, and I truly appreciate your effort, but I don’t see that your moderation (of this post) supports it.
I don’t know what type of men you knew who carried weapons, but i am sure they exist…still this doesn’t mean that we love death…I see people here in Jeddah are too indulgent in their love of life to the extent that their sinking in artificilaity and superficiality…
November:21:2009 - 10:49
The things I post on this blog are not necessarily my opinions. I’m particularly interested in posting what Saudis are saying about Saudi Arabia, through the media or through comments here. The quotation about ‘loving death more than life’ came from a Saudi, in a Saudi paper, it’s not my invention. I do not believe for a moment that most Saudis think that way. The quotation proves, however, that at least one Saudi thinks that way. Another Saudi, Usama bin Laden, has also used those words, so that makes at least two Saudis…
I do think Saudi Arabia faces incredible challenges as it tries to modulate between a traditional, conservative society to one that is more in line with the world around it. That’s not easy and it’s not fun. It is, in fact, very painful.
I do not have a prescription for Saudi Arabia–”You must do this, you must do that, in this order.” That’s for Saudis to decide.
I will criticize what I see as unfair or simply crazy–as the sentencing of ‘Qatif Girl’ to jail and flogging. No one is compelled to read what I write or even agree with it. That’s why I have my comments open to the public.
Assuredly, I’m not a Saudi; I don’t pretend to be nor, for that matter, do I want to be. I do wish the best for Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabs. If I can help them, by putting the country into context, then I think I’m doing a good thing. If I can counter some of the Saudi-bashing, then I think I’m doing a good thing.
Your contribution to the dialogue is most welcomed.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Maha,
If Crossroads Arabia was simply some sort of Saudi or Muslim bashing blog, then myself and many more would be long gone. I wouldn’t participate. Mr. Burgess, in his defense, reports on news as it comes out of the KSA. He doesn’t create the stories, he simply compiles and redistributes the news in clearinghouse fashion for those who are interested. If the story quoted above reflects poorly on Saudi Arabia then maybe you should address what the author wrote about what some Saudi youth have been taught. There’s no need here to direct your anger at the messenger.
Is there any truth to what Mansour Al-Hadj wrote? What part was funny, sad or prejudiced? We’re interested in hearing your view.
For me, I have met “true & good” Muslims both in person and over the internet. Also, I could surmise that there are Saudi males who own guns. But, please tell us what either of those points have to do with this conversation.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Maha
If revelation is revolution then it HAS BEGUN!
I look forward to interacting with you
I could go for some ice-cream too
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Xroads is certainly not an Islam or SA-bashing blog. It can best be categorized as a “National Geographicist” blog, about human nature and the lands of Arabia. Yes, a few readers have been known to be critical of Islam, but my guess is that even those people are mostly attracted by the human interest angle that JB takes on his blog. Besides, if a person wants to be critical of some religion, he/she can easily find better and more effective places to share their views.
Like it or not, SA is an interesting country with a very interesting history. It is also a major player in today’s world, wielding great power because of religion and oil. Great things are happening there and it would be an interesting place to visit, but thats out of the question for me.
Being the student of history I am, I watch SA closely. There are so many contradictions and challenges for its people and rulers – and these will only grow in the next few years. Personally, I believe the iran and S/S religious issue is going to take a big bite out of SA’s rear end in a few years. Should be fun to watch.
Last but not least, Xroads is good reading because the blogger is balanced and thoughtful. That counts a lot for be. I have run accross him on several other blogs (comments) and he is pretty consistent.
Thank you Sandy… I could tell you some wild stories about how certain religions and sects have tried to impose all sorts of codes, diets and dress on me — to make me a “good” person. It didn’t work. This was many many years ago and no, it wasn’t Islam.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
ratherdashing
I think my second reply to Mr. Burgess has clarified my opinion a bit.
But maybe i needed to clarify even more.
The post is kind of ironic and funny in terms of our men loving death, especially when I relate it to the all the Saudi men that I’ve known in my life, which is something i have explained in detail.
The sad part is that Mansour al-Hadj (though represents a minority) is looked at as a representative of ALL Saudis. Having Mansour represent Saudis in this way has given the chance to some real anti-Saudis and anti-Islam to take advantage.
In Utah, there are thousands of people who practice polygamy, but has any one ever dared to accuse America of being polygamist?
Could our Saudi headlines say: Polygamist America on Its Way!
Would it be fair to Americans to say that?
It also makes me very sad to see the spiritual concept of (Jihad) being distorted and ridiculed and insulted in such a way…Maybe I should write a post to clarify this concept from a moderate Islamic view…
I know Mr. Burgess might not have had the intention to represent Saudis as death loving people, but some of the commentators here found it an excellent oppurtunity to insult Saudi Arabia and (unfortunately) Islam as well.
I am not very fond of Saudi Arabia and I know it’s in a critical condition, but I hate people who hate us for no reason, and I cannot just stand silent and watch people connect Islam with every horrible thing that is happening in Saudi Arabia.
I also know Mr. Burgess is not posting his opinions, and that’s why I think this bolg is unfair. Even if he is quoting from the Saudi newspapers, it’s not fair…it’s actually not true…I’ve come to know how things work in some Saudi newpapers and all I can say that it is a shame…(my apologies to the few honest journalists and reporters I’ve known)
I wonder how would Americans feel if I take news from the Insider for instance and make all Americans appear as adulterers or infidle husbands?
Would any one here support me if I make a blog based on the American newspapers that tend to exaggerate every incident? How would Americans or Christians feel if I gather all the statistics of rape and crime in the States and made them topics for my blog and had people comment and say: it’s natural that Americans have high rates of rape because they are Christians or Kuffar or Westerners?
I hope I never find myself obliged to do this.
Again…this whole post makes me so sad as it distorts the spiritual concept of Jihad and the image of Saudi men whom I highly respect…sad that we are destroyed by a bunch of igonorant men who were also victims of poverty and lack of proper education…but who is responsible for this in the first place?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Sparky
I don’t mind interacting with you, too.
Thanks
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Mr John Burgess
I appreciate your efforts, but do you think that Saudi Arabia lacks educated and intellectual people who are working day and night to put our country into context and to develop it as well?
I am not an original Saudi myslef, but I am one of those who are trying hard to balance things here…I admit the drawbacks and the problems and try to suggest solutions, yet I also see the positive things that are kept in the dark by the media…I guess they won’t sell if they highlight them…evil always sells best as a Saudi blogger named Qusay has once stated…
Thanks once again..
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Some Saudis are among the smartest and classiest people I’ve ever met. Others are among the dumbest. But that goes for every nationality and ethnic group I’ve encountered. People are people, with a huge variation of behaviors among them. Remember, ‘Average’ is exactly that and there are people way out there on both ends of the scale, no matter what scale you’re using.
I think the Saudi education system as a whole has been a major failure and many Saudis agree. Some have managed to make good use of it, with a lot of help from their parents. Others, many others, have been reduced to not having good thinking skills and are unable to analyze complex situations. This leaves them open to being exploited, by con men and by extremists. Again, I’m not unique in making this assessment. It’s one that King Abdullah has spoken about.
There are many positive things about Saudis: they are generous of spirit, have a great sense of humor, have intense feelings about things they believe in. I’ve had very wonderful times in the desert with Bedouins as well as with princes. I’ve also met a few Saudis who could use some urgent classes in manners and good behavior, who could take themselves a little less seriously, and who could be a bit more honest.
All of these things, though, are the pluses and negatives of all mankind. I see Saudis as fully human, prone to greatness and to meanness in equal measure, like all other humans.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
- many others, have been reduced to not having good thinking skills and are unable to analyze complex situations. This leaves them open to being exploited, by con men and by extremists. Again, I’m not unique in making this assessment. It’s one that King Abdullah has spoken about.
The level of frustration among such people must be incredible. Very easy, I suppose, to re-direct such ill-adjusted youth towards committing violence against non-Muslims.
Yet my understanding is that Abdullah has had a hand in directing Saudi education for over forty years. So why should we think this isn’t this the result he wants?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I don’t connect King Abdullah with Saudi education, prior to his ascent to the throne. His bailiwick was the National Guard. He certainly made sure that schools were built to service National Guard families, but I really can’t recall any direct role in education per se.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
It seems to me that rote learning and de-emphasizing individual critical thinking are a part of all traditional, including Eastern pedagogical programs. They emphasis is more on knowledge of and harmonization with the status quo and the collectivity than individual analytic and critical skills. However, people often have those skills or develop them through lived experience, whether they are comfortable to voice them or not.
In my experience of doing therapy with people from a variety of backgrounds the similarities are greater than the differences but one does need to be aware of linguistic and cultural nuance.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Without critical skills, whatever is learned by rote becomes part of one’s identity, does it not? So when critical skills are only developed later in life, people will be apt to use them only to evaluate new information – and that tendency will exist in proportion to a person’s pride. In your opinion, is this really what Arabs need?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I’d strongly disagree with you assertion that early beliefs are immune to later-acquired critical thinking skills. I think universities stand as a pretty clear example of how that doesn’t work. Sure, some draw back into their shells, throw up a wall of denial and reticence, but most re-evaluate the ‘givens’ of their earlier lives. It doesn’t have to wait for university, though. I recall courses in high school that called for re-evaluations of things I’d be taught or otherwise learned. I don’t think I’m unique in this regard!
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I have to agree that critical thinking skills can be acquired progressively and later. Children are naturally questioning, and most don’t fully lose that capacity although they may not have resources to develop them formally. Most observe events and changes over time and develop a critical capacity in that manner if not in formal training.
While I also had a high school education that emphasized critical thinking, it is often said that university is a time of unlearning everything you thought you knew.
If there were no critical thinkers in authoritarian regimes where would the revolutionaries come from?
I think “Arabs” need what everyone else needs from an education which is a knowledge base, analytical skills, and the tools for ongoing learning and questioning.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
And “harmonization with the status quo and the collectivity”?
November:21:2009 - 10:49
I think that’s a largely vacuous phrase.
November:21:2009 - 10:49
Ouch! Not in the least bit vacuous.
While all education aims to socialize its students according to the norms of the society within which they are supposed to take part, the ones in authoritarian regimes emphasize more learning and maintaining the status quo, and the Eastern ones where the society is more based on community that individuality emphasize greater harmony with the collectivity inside the classroom or out. For example, Chinese students are not taught to debate or discuss or disagree with one another, and certainly not with what they think the teacher wants to hear. This is a challenge for all Western profs and particularly American ones. It was more marked under Mao when “debate” consisted of agreement and one upping each other with little Red book quotations, or Lin Biao bashing. It is still prevalent in universities in Hong Kong, leaving out the massive amounts of memorization and regurgitation in earlier years.
From what I have heard and read the schools in Arabic countries including Saudi emphasize rote learning and aren’t big on debate and dissent, and certainly not from the authority figures inside or outside the classroom.