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	<title>Comments on: Saudi Paper Notes Death of Rabbi in Mumbai</title>
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	<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/</link>
	<description>Informed comment and commentary about Saudi Arabia, reform, and its relations with the US</description>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17345</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17345</guid>
		<description>Singling out particular victims of terrorist acts is not a laughing matter. 

Had the victims of this attack been solely Indians, I doubt it would have made for lasting commentary. Fires, earthquakes, droughts, and all tend not to get much news coverage unless there is some particularization available. National media tend to pick up on stories that affect their own nationals, after all, no matter what country we&#039;re talking about. That&#039;s a simple news decision with no underlying agenda.

The case of Rabbi Holtzberg is a special one and does deserve special coverage. For one, it&#039;s clear that the reason for his death was solely his religion. Like it or not, the perception that a Jew will be killed almost automatically by a radical Muslim is held by many--and not just non-Muslims.

Second, the reports that he and his wife were tortured, something not done to the other victims, distinguishes his death from the &#039;ordinary&#039; victims&#039; deaths.

Then there&#039;s the fact that he was seen as a gentle person who extended his charity to all who came--without accompanying proselytizing efforts--made him a &#039;special&#039; victim as well. He could not even be considered an element of &#039;cultural invasion&#039; that bothers many Indians because he and his group had always been socially conservative.

So yes, he got special coverage.

The intent of my post was to point out that even Saudi media found it suitable to single out his death. That both distinguishes him and his death and demonstrates that Saudi Arabia is becoming aware that extremism in the name of Islam, which kills people solely for not being Muslim, is wrong and worthy of public condemnation. That is both new and creditable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Singling out particular victims of terrorist acts is not a laughing matter. </p>
<p>Had the victims of this attack been solely Indians, I doubt it would have made for lasting commentary. Fires, earthquakes, droughts, and all tend not to get much news coverage unless there is some particularization available. National media tend to pick up on stories that affect their own nationals, after all, no matter what country we&#8217;re talking about. That&#8217;s a simple news decision with no underlying agenda.</p>
<p>The case of Rabbi Holtzberg is a special one and does deserve special coverage. For one, it&#8217;s clear that the reason for his death was solely his religion. Like it or not, the perception that a Jew will be killed almost automatically by a radical Muslim is held by many&#8211;and not just non-Muslims.</p>
<p>Second, the reports that he and his wife were tortured, something not done to the other victims, distinguishes his death from the &#8216;ordinary&#8217; victims&#8217; deaths.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the fact that he was seen as a gentle person who extended his charity to all who came&#8211;without accompanying proselytizing efforts&#8211;made him a &#8216;special&#8217; victim as well. He could not even be considered an element of &#8216;cultural invasion&#8217; that bothers many Indians because he and his group had always been socially conservative.</p>
<p>So yes, he got special coverage.</p>
<p>The intent of my post was to point out that even Saudi media found it suitable to single out his death. That both distinguishes him and his death and demonstrates that Saudi Arabia is becoming aware that extremism in the name of Islam, which kills people solely for not being Muslim, is wrong and worthy of public condemnation. That is both new and creditable.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17344</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17344</guid>
		<description>Actually, MEMRI has changed it tone. About five years ago, it started recognizing moderate and reform-minded Arabs and congratulated their efforts. This is good, if you think moderation and reform are good, of course.

It does continue to pick out those who hold archaic, intolerant ideas about society and who do things that make Islam look silly or dangerous. There&#039;s no question that these people do exist and that they do harm the image of Arabs and Islam. 

The question is: How representative are they? By focusing on them, does MEMRI dishonestly reflect the reality of the Arab and Islamic world?

And it always must be kept in mind that MEMRI is a pro-Israel organization with the agenda of promoting at least some Israeli points of view. Those points of view tend to be conservative and similar to those of the Likud Party, not of the more liberal parties.

You&#039;re right that some of its translations are weak or questionable. That seems to have improved over the years, but it&#039;s always best to check the original. That assumes one speaks or reads Arabic, however. That is not the norm in the US--MEMRI&#039;s audience--so there is room for intentional &#039;accidents&#039; of translation.

Nevertheless, it does provide a service in translating materials that would otherwise go unseen. A does of skepticism as to the completeness and accuracy is required, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, MEMRI has changed it tone. About five years ago, it started recognizing moderate and reform-minded Arabs and congratulated their efforts. This is good, if you think moderation and reform are good, of course.</p>
<p>It does continue to pick out those who hold archaic, intolerant ideas about society and who do things that make Islam look silly or dangerous. There&#8217;s no question that these people do exist and that they do harm the image of Arabs and Islam. </p>
<p>The question is: How representative are they? By focusing on them, does MEMRI dishonestly reflect the reality of the Arab and Islamic world?</p>
<p>And it always must be kept in mind that MEMRI is a pro-Israel organization with the agenda of promoting at least some Israeli points of view. Those points of view tend to be conservative and similar to those of the Likud Party, not of the more liberal parties.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that some of its translations are weak or questionable. That seems to have improved over the years, but it&#8217;s always best to check the original. That assumes one speaks or reads Arabic, however. That is not the norm in the US&#8211;MEMRI&#8217;s audience&#8211;so there is room for intentional &#8216;accidents&#8217; of translation.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, it does provide a service in translating materials that would otherwise go unseen. A does of skepticism as to the completeness and accuracy is required, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Ghulam</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17343</link>
		<dc:creator>Ghulam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17343</guid>
		<description>Memri isn&#039;t just selective with information, it sometimes just gives false/weak translations. It hardly ever publishes moderate discussion, if only to make moderate discussion seem marginal or non-normative. MEMRI is about as good a source as FOX or Haaretz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Memri isn&#8217;t just selective with information, it sometimes just gives false/weak translations. It hardly ever publishes moderate discussion, if only to make moderate discussion seem marginal or non-normative. MEMRI is about as good a source as FOX or Haaretz.</p>
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		<title>By: Ghulam</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17342</link>
		<dc:creator>Ghulam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17342</guid>
		<description>Like he&#039;s a special victim. Needs to be recognised differently from the other victims. Like all the non-American or Muslim victims who were given extraordinary coverage by the American press during 9/11. What a laugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like he&#8217;s a special victim. Needs to be recognised differently from the other victims. Like all the non-American or Muslim victims who were given extraordinary coverage by the American press during 9/11. What a laugh.</p>
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		<title>By: chucho</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17227</link>
		<dc:creator>chucho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 10:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17227</guid>
		<description>I agree that MEMRI is a good source, especially its wonderful videos of what self-proclaimed &quot;sheikhs&quot; (who often rise to power through nepotism and &quot;wasta&quot;) blather about on state television. One of my favorites is a &quot;scholar&quot; talking about how US astronauts secretly converted to Islam after realizing that the Kabaa was indeed the center of the universe, based on studies of magnetic radiation (or some such nonsense). On the other hand, I do think MEMRI selects what it chooses to translate and post on YouTube. I call it the &quot;Michael Moore&quot; version of reality: find the easiest and most overtly stupid targets and prop them up as examples for the rest of us to laugh at. I would love to see somebody translate opinion pieces from the Saudi press, including not just the conspiracy minded pan-Islamist hardcore Salafist wing nuts, but also the more metered columns. I&#039;d also love to see somebody translate simple news stories out of the Saudi press to underscore the way reporters cover local news. I think that would highlight how much &quot;brainwashing&quot; and subjective &quot;analysis&quot; takes place in the day-to-day press. One good example is that whenever a criminal suspect is arrested, say for smuggling drugs, the media assumes the guilt of the arrested suspect. And nobody in the Saudi media is willing to ask why so many criminal suspects confess to their crimes. (I think I know the answer: they force suspects to fingerprint confessions, sometimes BLANK SHEETS OF PAPER.) In a broader context, I think the media is just an more developed extension of the stuff published in Saudi textbooks. And it&#039;s related to this post because we&#039;re thrilled when the media (in this case the English-language media) mentions the death of a rabbi, but, geez, if that&#039;s a &quot;tiny victory&quot; for the press, it shows how far the press has to go toward addressing not just problems with extremism, but also and more importantly problems that adversely affect Saudi citizens every day. (Fortunately I think the media there is doing the best it can on the domestic abuse front, I guess, though they tend to drop stories without following up unless the story has garnered international or regional attention. In that sense it&#039;s great that &quot;we&quot; put pressure on &quot;them&quot; to address these issues. In exchange, Saudi Arabia can join the WTO and make tons of money giving up its &quot;economic sovereignty&quot; by opening its markets. They can&#039;t both ways: they either engage the world and address these problems while also engaging the world economically, or they shut themselves up and sell oil, camels and clink.) I think the media is doing a horrible job addressing medical malpractice, too, which affect Saudis. I doubt we&#039;ll see a truly open and critical media in Saudi Arabia in our lifetime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that MEMRI is a good source, especially its wonderful videos of what self-proclaimed &#8220;sheikhs&#8221; (who often rise to power through nepotism and &#8220;wasta&#8221;) blather about on state television. One of my favorites is a &#8220;scholar&#8221; talking about how US astronauts secretly converted to Islam after realizing that the Kabaa was indeed the center of the universe, based on studies of magnetic radiation (or some such nonsense). On the other hand, I do think MEMRI selects what it chooses to translate and post on YouTube. I call it the &#8220;Michael Moore&#8221; version of reality: find the easiest and most overtly stupid targets and prop them up as examples for the rest of us to laugh at. I would love to see somebody translate opinion pieces from the Saudi press, including not just the conspiracy minded pan-Islamist hardcore Salafist wing nuts, but also the more metered columns. I&#8217;d also love to see somebody translate simple news stories out of the Saudi press to underscore the way reporters cover local news. I think that would highlight how much &#8220;brainwashing&#8221; and subjective &#8220;analysis&#8221; takes place in the day-to-day press. One good example is that whenever a criminal suspect is arrested, say for smuggling drugs, the media assumes the guilt of the arrested suspect. And nobody in the Saudi media is willing to ask why so many criminal suspects confess to their crimes. (I think I know the answer: they force suspects to fingerprint confessions, sometimes BLANK SHEETS OF PAPER.) In a broader context, I think the media is just an more developed extension of the stuff published in Saudi textbooks. And it&#8217;s related to this post because we&#8217;re thrilled when the media (in this case the English-language media) mentions the death of a rabbi, but, geez, if that&#8217;s a &#8220;tiny victory&#8221; for the press, it shows how far the press has to go toward addressing not just problems with extremism, but also and more importantly problems that adversely affect Saudi citizens every day. (Fortunately I think the media there is doing the best it can on the domestic abuse front, I guess, though they tend to drop stories without following up unless the story has garnered international or regional attention. In that sense it&#8217;s great that &#8220;we&#8221; put pressure on &#8220;them&#8221; to address these issues. In exchange, Saudi Arabia can join the WTO and make tons of money giving up its &#8220;economic sovereignty&#8221; by opening its markets. They can&#8217;t both ways: they either engage the world and address these problems while also engaging the world economically, or they shut themselves up and sell oil, camels and clink.) I think the media is doing a horrible job addressing medical malpractice, too, which affect Saudis. I doubt we&#8217;ll see a truly open and critical media in Saudi Arabia in our lifetime.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17220</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17220</guid>
		<description>Norman: That&#039;s true to some extent. As long as you keep in mind that MEMRI is a pro-Israel organization with a very definite agenda, it serves a useful purpose. The translations are not always accurate, however. There&#039;s also very selective use of quotations.

I do cite it here often, though, and usually favorably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norman: That&#8217;s true to some extent. As long as you keep in mind that MEMRI is a pro-Israel organization with a very definite agenda, it serves a useful purpose. The translations are not always accurate, however. There&#8217;s also very selective use of quotations.</p>
<p>I do cite it here often, though, and usually favorably.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17219</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 02:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17219</guid>
		<description>Chucho, A good source of translations of Arabic-language media appears regularly at www.memri.org.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chucho, A good source of translations of Arabic-language media appears regularly at <a href="http://www.memri.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.memri.org</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17217</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17217</guid>
		<description>Well, that might be because Khaled Al-Faisal is Governor of Mecca, while his brother is the Foreign Minister, with responsibility for international affairs.

The Saudi gov&#039;t did say this, however:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Official source issues statement
 
Jeddah, November 27, SPA -- The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has followed with great sadness the terrorist bombings in Mumbai, India, an official source told the Saudi Press Agency (SPA).

&quot;The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia &lt;strong&gt;strongly condemns and denounces this criminal act&lt;/strong&gt;, and offers condolences and sympathy to the friendly government and people of India,&quot; the source added.
[Emphasis added]&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that might be because Khaled Al-Faisal is Governor of Mecca, while his brother is the Foreign Minister, with responsibility for international affairs.</p>
<p>The Saudi gov&#8217;t did say this, however:</p>
<blockquote><p>Official source issues statement</p>
<p>Jeddah, November 27, SPA &#8212; The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has followed with great sadness the terrorist bombings in Mumbai, India, an official source told the Saudi Press Agency (SPA).</p>
<p>&#8220;The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia <strong>strongly condemns and denounces this criminal act</strong>, and offers condolences and sympathy to the friendly government and people of India,&#8221; the source added.<br />
[Emphasis added]</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Solomon2</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17215</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17215</guid>
		<description>Arrgh!  It wasn&#039;t Pr. Khaled who said that terrorists are the problem and prescribed introducing &quot;Islam in its true shape and spirit&quot; as the solution, but Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz.  My bad!  The &lt;i&gt;Gazette&lt;/i&gt; article cited contains no quotes by Pr. Khaled denouncing Muslim terrorists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrgh!  It wasn&#8217;t Pr. Khaled who said that terrorists are the problem and prescribed introducing &#8220;Islam in its true shape and spirit&#8221; as the solution, but Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz.  My bad!  The <i>Gazette</i> article cited contains no quotes by Pr. Khaled denouncing Muslim terrorists.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2008/11/29/saudi-paper-notes-death-of-rabbi-in-mumbai/comment-page-1/#comment-17214</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/?p=6141#comment-17214</guid>
		<description>Solomon2: Pr. Khaled is not a stupid man. I think you&#039;ve selectively quoted him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solomon2: Pr. Khaled is not a stupid man. I think you&#8217;ve selectively quoted him.</p>
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