Middle East Times runs an editorial noting that moderate Muslims are not only speaking out against extremism, they are ’screaming’ against it. The piece takes its theme from an op-ed in Abu Dhabi’s Al-Ittihad newspaper (sorry, I can’t find a direct link to the Arabic) which highlights King Abdullah’s calls for peace and tolerance, coupled with the OIC Director General’s call for an end to terrorism. It notes the serious problem within Sunni Islam of the lack of a central authority that allows ‘fatwa shops’ to spring up and issue really stupid rulings on things like Mickey Mouse and ‘bikini Olympics’.
There’s a part of Western media and commentary that alleges that ‘Moderate Muslims Don’t Speak Up Against Terror’. Well, moderate Muslims might be culpable of coming late to the discussion, but they are speaking up and loudly. To not hear them suggests either willing deafness to their voices or simply not listening for their voices in the right place. One will have to look long and hard, unfortunately, to find reports of their voices in most Western media.
Moderate Muslims Scream for Action
CLAUDE SALHANIKing Abdullah of Saudi Arabia stated in a recent speech that Muslims cannot keep on remaining silent while other Muslims continue to cause harm to Islam. Abu Dhabi’s Al-Ittihad newspaper followed up Monday with an opinion piece expanding on the king’s speech in an article titled, “Who is Harming Islam?”
The Emirates newspaper described King Abdullah’s speech as a “scream” for action.
The Saudi monarch said it was no longer acceptable to “simply complain or condemn.” The time had come for action.
…
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October:07:2008 - 12:49
it might be nice that the king is speaking up, but the sad truth is that, atleast in the united states, moderate muslims try to do good in their communities but they fail to actually speak out against the harm being done to our religion. You dont see large groups of muslims getting together and doing something about a terrorists. No rallies to even just publicly show that we do not agree with the radical terrorists! I sometimes find i am either alone or only with one or two other people from the local muslim community, who will speak up and publicly denounce that the terrorist acts are not what I as a muslim believe! I can only hope that muslims here in the states will see king abdullah’s speech and will start becoming more active.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Just as a side note and an ten cent worth…No political leader should be deamed the caliphate or Iman of Muslims IMPO. The Pope to my knowledge has no official or outward public influence in Italy. A centralized fatwa making body O.K. but one single Muslim leader No….
I mean if someone could be put in place like the Pope maybe but where would he reside and be welcomed?
October:07:2008 - 12:49
the prince’s girl,
The “radical” Muslims that you publicly denounce believe that there is a penalty for apostasy. The penalty for rejection of Islam is death, in their view. This is part of their method of terror. They intimidate people to remain in the faith. Do you think apostates should be killed?
October:07:2008 - 12:49
So muslims are willing to be held down by terror as well? Killing people who were not muslim to start with and are not apostates is not following this. Neither the Quran nor hadiths say you should be killing women and children just to scare people into believing.
If the terrorists were killing people who were once muslims, and had they had turned their back on islam, then maybe the terrorists killing these and only these people are justified. But the terror attacks are on people who were never muslims to start with. Muhammad (PBUH) told us to try our best to just live peacefully with the non-muslims. And what about the innocent muslims they happen to kill in these terrorist outbursts? you cant tell me that no muslims have been killed in these attacks. That is absoultly wrong. A muslims should only be killed for 3 reasons. And just being in the wrong place at the wrong time sure isnt one of them.
That brings you to a whole other releam of why they do this. so i will stop here for now so this doesnt become a superlong post.
As a straight simple answer to your question if i think they should: well honestly, i think there might be some validity to it, however i know that i wouldnt kill anyone over it because i personally 1. i am not a scholar or anything like that, so it would be wrong for me to make such a grave desicion about someone and 2. even in saudi and other islamic countries, there are islamic courts that would deal with this and fairly decieded if they were a true apostate and do all the correct steps before they just chop off a head or something.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
I apologize but you are not really making any sense prince’s girl. People can change their minds about things…to kill someone for their doubts is cruel and inhumane and as you said these types of killings are carried out by terrorists. You said and I am quoting you, “If terrorists were killing people who were once muslims, and they had turned their back on islam, then maybe the terrorists killing these and only these people are justified.”
Just listen to how you phrase you own statements. Ugghh just when I thought it couldn’t get any uglier….
Gee wizxx
October:07:2008 - 12:49
i phrased it that way for a particular reason. There are several hadiths that say that we should kill apostates. I do not know if these are genuine hadiths. I know that even in these “hadiths” that there are certain steps that must be done before you just kill the person. more importantly as i said once before but the terror attacks are on people who were never muslim to start with!!!! There is NO justification to be killing these people just becasue they are not muslim!!! It is completely wrong and there are not hadiths, not even ones that are slightly fuzzy on if they are true or not that say that it is justified!
October:07:2008 - 12:49
It is not just the radicals that believe that there is a penalty for apostasy. All 4 Sunni schools teach this, as well as the major Shia one. I dare say that Muslims commenters here go to Mosques that follow one of these schools. To me, it seems that the only ones opposing these laws are those whose voice means nothing (and they usually live in the West) — which leads me to believe that they are not honest. When Muslim countries repeal all apostasy laws and give non-Muslims the same religious rights they have, then we can talk.
I find Muslim ignorance of Islam to be appalling - either that or they just say things they think will sound nice to us non-Muslims. Perhaps The Prince’s Girl will tell us where the hitherto unknown passage is about “Muhammad told us to try our best to just live peacefully with the non-muslims.” I seem to remember certain verses in the Quran about attacking, subduing and even killing infidels. The hadith are worse. If Prince’s Girl has bothered to read them she may perhaps notice they are about Mohammad’s endless wars on Non-Mulims, detailing raids, murder, plunder, torture, enslavement and even rape. Sorry to tell you this but that is what they say.
The problem is that Muslims are totally uncritical of any aspect of Islam. They don’t read or understand the words in their own scriptures. It seems to me that they put their brains in a box under the bed when it comes to discussions about Islam and its prophet. They believe islam to be perfect so any evidence to the contrary is ignored. Logic and reason are also ignored. For example, if Mohammad ordered the death of those that “change their religion” then the apostasy laws are correct but the “no compulsion” verse is overruled. If apostates shouldn’t be killed and the “no compulsuion” rule is right, then Mohammad is a murderer. Which is it? and so on…
This is why things don’t change and even get worse. Muslims need people to tell them the things they don’t want to hear.
Kactuz
October:07:2008 - 12:49
well I think someone (not lazy me…I will tink about it) should go on a fact finding mission to find out how genuine these hadiths are and perhaps know the steps before we encourage terrorists to kill any more people….
October:07:2008 - 12:49
the prince’s girl,
If you want to truly separate yourself from the “radical” Muslims, you would reject outright the notion that a person should be killed for his/her religious belief. This would be the moral decision regardless of whether the command exists within the hadith or not. Otherwise, you have sided with the “radical” when you state:
What do you choose?
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Jay: Thanks for your comment.
Muslim ignorance is indeed a serous problem… as is Christian ignorance of Christianity, Hindu ignorance of Hinduism, etc.
The question of apostasy comes down to who does the punishing and when. Some hadith support corporal punishment in the here and now; others say this is something God will sort out at the End of Days.
Because there is no central authority with the power to say what the correct interpretation of Islam is, there is no way to settle the argument in a definitive manner. Because so many ahadith are contradictory, I find that it calls into question whether any should be accepted, particularly those that work against the general understanding of Islam as a religion of peace. That, however, is an argument Muslims will have to sort out for themselves. No religion, I believe, is immune to the ‘cherry-picking’ of scripture to make political points.
Particularly in the West, religions have made an effort to down play, to forget, actually, those verses that support unconstrained violence and vigilantism. That’s a much harder thing to do for Islam.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
John,
You are right about most Christians, too.
I really enjoy your blog (and those of many Muslims, too… even if I don’t agree with them on much of anything).
At least, these are interesting times.
Take care…
J
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Christian ignorance of Christianity doesn’t result in large-scale Christian plots to murder non-Christians - not any more, anyway. Thus it isn’t as serious a problem as “Muslim ignorance” is today.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
John, thank you for your post. Dispite being an english speaker from birth, i still have difficultly translating something i learned in arabic back to english that everyone understands. The fact that there are hadiths (which are merely sayings passed down orally) that have been corrupted, or added completely just to do bad things, is where the religion gets fuzzy on this subject. And i personally am not someone who has studied this in depth, and i feel it is wrong for me to judge someone on something i do not know for sure about. No where in the quran does it say to kill the apostates. That is a definate.
Killing apostates occurs in some countries, i can not deny that, but this topic was on comdemning terrorism, and the acts some so called “muslims” preformed against non-muslims.
“If you want to truly separate yourself from the “radical” Muslims, you would reject outright the notion that a person should be killed for his/her religious belief”
I personally would never speak out FOR killing apostates, (i feel in my heart you should not) however, i cant speak out against it either, because i have not studied this in depth. It is something that i do not feel i have the right to say one way or the other.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Without a clear statement in the Quran that apostates should be killed, I think it very unsound reasoning to assume that’s what was meant. Instead, it seems to me, it is in itself a sin of shirk when one man presumes to know what God ‘really meant’ and forcing an interpretation in a particular direction.
Personally, I think most ahadith are unsound. Very few (if any) were actually recorded within even a century of the time of the Prophet. Too many others are clearly (to me) convenient and self-serving statements that promoted or supported politics of a particular time and place. Because so many, in my view, are corrupted and because it is impossible to tell the difference, I think reliance on any hadith is unsound.
For a Muslim to question the authenticity or authority of the ahadith, however, is fraught with danger as researchers have sadly discovered.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
the prince’s girl,
I quickly read through your blog and understand your position as a newly-minted Muslim. So, I’ll go easy on you here. But, the Quran does offer some instruction on how to treat unbelievers. An apostate falls into that category. See the link below from the Muslim Student Association at USC.
It’s pretty clear how you should treat an unbeliever.
SURA 8:12
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
As a member of the human race, you have permission to speak out against killing those who reject a religion or god.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Ratherdashing: I love your last comment!
October:07:2008 - 12:49
ratherdashing: You make a bold statement, but are you sure your right? Are you god? You speak only from your belief system, and what you want to believe, but can you prove it? What if God did want them killed? wouldnt you be teaching people against God?
THAT is why i refrain from telling people it is one way or another. Just because you WANT to believe something is right or wrong, it doesnt mean that is is.
You pluck a “verse” from the quran to prove your point yet you ignore the verses around it, and more importantly the background concerning the entire chapter. To begin, this verse is part of a narration about an event that had just taken place, referring to a SPECIFIC BATTLE, this verse is not an order on Muslims, and this verse is talking about that battle that took place. The battle it is referring to is the battle of Badr, the first battle between muslims and non-muslims. Back in those days you would first aim for the neck to neutrilize the enemy, and the fingers so if not killed, they could atleast no longer carry a sword.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
I also want to add that although i am defending the the fact that it MAY be true, i am in no way saying it IS true. That is two very diffent things.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
TPG,
Bold statement? You declared that nowhere in the Quran does it say to kill the apostate. I can pour verses on you directly from the Quran calling for the killing of unbelievers and kafirs. Apostates can be easily labeled as such. Whether these verses arise from an old battle does not change that they exist for the twisting of the “radicals.”
So, you have a chance here to separate yourself from these “radicals” on a single key issue - the treatment of apostates. Equivocating on this perpetuates the mentality of the radicals. If you supposedly oppose them so much (as stated in your first post) then take a stand against them on this issue.
I’ll go first and say: “People should not be killed for rejecting Islam.”
It’s your turn.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
For fun. Robert Spencer lists Ten Ways to be Considered a Moderate Muslim:
1. Acknowledge the existence of and repudiate the traditional Islamic imperative, taught by all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence that Muslims recognize as orthodox, to impose Islamic law upon non-Muslims, whether by force or by stealth.
2. Renounce any intention, now or in the future, to replace the U.S. Constitution with Islamic law.
3. Clarify, and call upon other Muslims in America to clarify, what is meant by the words “terrorism” and innocent” in Muslim condemnations of terrorism, so that it is clear that what is being condemned is the murder of American and other non-combatants by Muslims acting in the name of Islamic jihad.
4. Repudiate the idea that Muslims have a divine mandate to force, when possible, Jews, Christians, and other “People of the Book” to pay a special religion-based tax from which Muslims are exempt (Qur’an 9:29).
5. Call upon Muslims in America to institute comprehensive, honest, and transparent programs in mosques and Islamic schools, teaching the virtues of the non-establishment of religion, and teaching directly against Islamic supremacism and the idea that Muslims must fight against Jews and Christians until they “feel themselves subdued” (Qur’an 9:29).
6. Call upon Muslims in America to institute comprehensive, honest, and transparent programs in mosques and Islamic schools, teaching against honor killing, and against the idea — which is enshrined in Islamic law — that a parent faces no penalty for killing his or her own child (see ‘Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).
7. Call upon Muslims worldwide, including in Saudi Arabia, to end all institutionalized discrimination against and harassment of non-Muslims, and to allow churches and other houses of worship to be built in majority-Muslim countries with an ease comparable to that with which mosques are currently built in Western countries.
8. Repudiate the idea that a Muslim who renounces Islam and adopts any other faith or no faith at all should be killed — as is the teaching of Muhammad and all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence — and call upon Muslim groups in America to teach the freedom of conscience as a God-given right in American mosques and Islamic schools.
9. Call upon Muslims in America and worldwide to drop the traditional and authoritative Islamic prohibition of marriage between non-Muslim men and Muslim women, and to repudiate and teach against the idea of divinely sanctioned wife-beating (Qur’an 4:34).
10. Condemn Hamas and Hizballah as terrorist organizations, and the Islamic Republic of Iran for its continuing the barbaric practice of stoning people to death. Call upon Muslim groups to teach against stoning as a punishment for adultery or anything else in American mosques and Islamic schools.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
go ahead and “pour verses on me.”
just because a verse can be taken out of context makes a religon wrong? have you read your bible?!?!!?
If the quran had sad kill apostates, then i would have said you had to kill them. (although, if it had, there might be a chance i wouldnt be muslim either.)
I refuse to say something is true or false if i cant prove it.
oh and your list… sorry, but it is not a list on how to be a moderate muslim, sorry.
It is more like a list of how to look like a patsy muslim who gives up their faith and even in some cases goes against true islam just to fit into what non-muslims want you to look like.
Religion isnt a popularity contest. Religion is about God and doing what he wants. ALL religions are like that. Just because you feel insecure and worried that somehow your missing out on something or your discrimated against or whatever your reasoning that you feel we have to change our religion to fit your views, it doesnt mean we should.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
I don’t have much use for Robert Spencer. He can always find some Muslim willing to make stupid comments or offer a stupid interpretation. Then, working from the extreme he cherry-picked, he’ll state that Muslims can’t control themselves.
Every religion has and has had lunatics.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
I liked reading the proverbs and the psalms in the Bible when I was younger. The Bible old has some quirky stuff in it. The new testament was o.k. but had it weaknesses and contradictions as well. I have to be straight up honest. The verses of the Quran never really did anything for me spiritually with the exception of surah Al Rahman and perhaps a few other ones…Other than that I am turned off by some of the rough language and condemnation.
I think I am better off listening to Walt Whitman at this stage of my life.
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Re-examine all that you have been told… dismiss that which insults your soul.
- Walt Whitman
Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?
- Walt Whitman
God rest his sweet soul…
October:07:2008 - 12:49
How’s this for a start? But, if you chew on these examples below for a while you will miss the point of the discussion. I’ll re-state it. A death penalty for apostasy is one of the central ideas of the “radicals” that you claim to oppose. In most of the world it is a violation of the most fundamental human right. The right to choose one’s religion (or no religion at all) is preserved in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. This is a basic freedom that I want more people to have.
You can keep being ambivalent about it, but this only emboldens the very people that you oppose. They appreciate the leeway they are given by “moderate” muslims.
___
FROM THE QURAN:
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
___
Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.
___
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
___
They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
___
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
___
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
____
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
___
O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)
___
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.
___
October:07:2008 - 12:49
October:07:2008 - 12:49
Well, this very last comment is a good incentive never to embrace islam….