I see it as a good sign that Arab News is carrying this Associate Press report about outrage in the Pakistani Parliament when one of its members chose to support ‘honor killings’. Three’s obviously a message here for Saudis, some of whom have rather strange ideas about ‘honor’. There is no honor in ‘honor killings’ whatsoever. There is no religious authority for them, there is no moral authority: there is only barbarity.
Pak lawmaker defend ‘honor killings’ of five
Robin McDowell I APISLAMABAD: A Pakistani lawmaker defended a decision by southwestern tribesmen to bury five women alive because they wanted to choose their own husbands, telling stunned members of Parliament this week to spare him their outrage.
“These are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them,” Israr Ullah Zehri, who represents Balochistan province, said yesterday. “Only those who indulge in immoral acts should be afraid.”
The women, three of whom were teenagers, were first shot and then thrown into a ditch. They were still breathing as their bodies were covered with rocks and mud, according to media reports and human rights activists, who said their only “crime” was that they wished to marry men of their own choosing. Zehri told a packed and flabbergasted Parliament on Friday that Baloch tribal traditions helped stop obscenity and then asked fellow lawmakers not to make a big fuss about it.
Many stood up in protest, saying the executions were “barbaric”. They demanded that the discussions continue tomorrow. But some lawmakers said it was an internal matter of the deeply conservative province.
…
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August:31:2008 - 15:53
Really? You’re really making a stretch between Saudi and other countries as far as Honor killings.
Have you ever even heard of support for honor killings in Saudi? Sorry but I haven’t.
August:31:2008 - 16:57
Oh, I’ve definitely heard some Saudis speak in support of ‘honor killings’. I have not–nor have I said that I have–heard of clear cut cases of ‘honor killings’.
I’d even go so far as to say that executions for adultery are ‘honor killings’ at one remove. However bad adultery is, it does not deserve to be considered a capital crime.
August:31:2008 - 18:02
I think this question has been clearly answered in the 80′s by a famous British Documentary. I do not think the attitude on this issue has changed much since then.
August:31:2008 - 19:13
First off this article relates to Pakistan, not any Arab country.
Second “Honor Killings” as a phenomenon is a myth, a tool of bigotry.
Yes women and men are killed and executed for actions that Westerners would deem unfit, however there is no universal code among Muslim people.
As far as this killing, it has undoubtedly been sensationalized as the media typically does.
The women were probably not killed for choosing husbands of there own, but probably for denying tribal orders to marry men from another clan as part of a peace deal.
Although no one in the West would support such an order, these types of arrangements save people from suffering.
Baulochistan is not representative of the Islamic world either. In places were rule of law reigns supreme, women are not given to settle tribal disputes.
The media should be more responsible when reporting, using weasel words like “deeply conservative province,” LOL what province in Pakistan isn’t deeply conservative.
August:31:2008 - 19:16
John Burgess you are extremely simple minded in your approach to law.
The execution of adulterers saves lives, I ask what is the HIV rate in Pakistan, and what is it in India?
The West seeks to relish in some sick sort of pleasure at the expense of others safety and security.
August:31:2008 - 22:08
To take your points in order:
Yes, this story is reported out of Pakistan. Says so, right in my introduction and the first paragraph of the story.
I do hope you’re not suggesting that some Arabs do not conduct ‘honor killings’. There are cases active in Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, and Yemen right now. There are cases in France, the UK, and the US of Arab fathers and brothers killing their daughters and sisters.
If only these stories were ‘sensationalized’.
And since when is telling a tribal council to get stuffed an excuse for murder? Not in the civilized world, my friend.
Vigilante murder, even community-sponsored murder in violation of a nation’s laws is criminal activity, in the West, in the East, everywhere. It doesn’t matter if it’s being done by Christians, Muslims, Hindus… in any and all instances it is barbaric.
Murdering adulterers is far in excess of any moral standard of proportionality. Claiming that it reduces the instance of AIDS is pathetic.
Perhaps I am ‘simple minded’ as you say. I am not so simple minded however to equate murder with ‘community service’. Perhaps it is you who might profitably spend some time with a few law books.
August:31:2008 - 23:08
Do you think this gives a contemporary definition for virgin sacrifice?
September:01:2008 - 01:52
Tariq, For anyone to attempt to defend or support the deaths of these innocent young women at the hands of those barbarians is incomprehensible. Just because these actions are centuries old traditions, doesn’t make them right or moral. Many old traditions have been abandoned because people finally realized they were wrong.
September:01:2008 - 02:23
You are sick people indeed.
First to Saudi in US, I don’t follow your logic, when a people make a peace deal and that deal includes offering women as wives, how does punishing the women who seek to put themselves above the community equate to a Virgin Sacrifice?
Apparently you so called enlightened individuals have forgotten the war reparations enforced on Germany. Slavery, forced labor, and even forced marriages have been used to settle disputes for centuries and continues to the present day. Just because more recent incidences have taken the form of financial compensation and transfer of raw materials, does not negate the fact that these forms of reparations are slavery as they are forcing people to give up their time and labor to another without compensation.
John I take it you never talked to a kid who got AIDS from his or her mother coming out of the birth canal, or an individual who got AIDS from there cheating spouse. Your sick form of self gratification and self righteousness makes you less then a man in my view.
Stoning to death adulterers and adultereresses is a great service to women in Islamic lands. Look at South Africa and many other societies were victims of AIDS are dissportionately women.
A man killing his daughter or son because of immoral sexual activity is hardly the same as a man killing his daughter or son because they were raped and THEY BELIEVE THEY WERE RAPED.
I doubt any man would kill their daughter or son thinking they had been raped. You seek to dehumanize the Islamic World, however you only show your bigotry.
Take for example the media coverage of the Girl from Qatif case, often times the media would focus soley on the women being raped and punished, yet Fox News, CNN, and Amnesty International all reported that the man she was with was also raped and also sentenced to the exact same punishment she was, were as the alleged attackers received another set of punishments.
No doubt the West would still be outraged, however less so had they known the man she was with experienced the same trauma and received the same punishment, even the increased punishment. I will post links if you want.
September:01:2008 - 02:28
Susie I was talking under assumption that these women were given in marriage as part of a peace treaty.
I don’t see why you are to judging them for living according their means. I personally believe that assuming these women were given in marriage as part of a peace treaty (which is VERY common in that part of the world), then the dictating tribe needs be dealt with.
How can you blame a tribe for seeking to mitigate the suffering of its future generations?
It is sick how you can sit in your nice comfortable home, having been born into the strongest power on earth, and blame those who are weak and trying to mitigate there suffering.
I personally believe that for these circumstances to change those who wish to perpetuate them need to be dealt with militarily. Balouchistan is a violent place, before things like this can become obsolete those who benefit from the anarchy need to be reigned in.
September:01:2008 - 02:31
John few Muslims will agree with you on your stance about adultery. Again the West has a demented view that sexuality should be “free” ignoring the fact that children who are born in unstable relationships have a reduced amount of resources and often one less parent to support them.
Of course what else could be expected from a society where rapists are supported by rape victims, yes that is right rapists are supported by rape victims throughout the West.
Heaven forbid that convicted rapists and other criminals be forced to support themselves by working, instead the tax payers should be forced to support them, the very people who were victims of them.
At least in the Old Testament the rapist was forced to support the victim for the rest of her life.
September:01:2008 - 03:00
Tariq,
You cannot follow my logic, because you are simply stupid. It is a 2 step logic, that is beyond your simpleton thinking.
You have no credibility in any of your arguments, because you sound like an angry man that have all these assumptions about what people think before they even say them. I think you have exposed your small brain to too much propaganda, where someone made up your believes for you and let you loose to scream on top of your lungs like an unthinking Automaton.
The simple wrong we are talking about here is the killing of these girls and your assumption that it was justified as they did not accept to be traded like slaves. By the way that was an assumption you made and you are going on like it was a fact (talk about logic). It has to do with this single incident, not with every problem or conflict that happened in the world. The only relation with these other incidents is simply in your angry mind.
September:01:2008 - 03:13
You are pathetic, first your 2 step logic is of an angry simpleton.
The girls refused to get married, they were murdered, virgin sacrifice?
The article itself says there were conflicting reports, but only mentions one.
How is that credible? Yellow Journalism if you ask me.
What propaganda have I exposed myself too?
None of the points I have made seem to be voiced by anyone other then myself.
LOL, me a simpleton, I guess earning a B.A. degree in one and a half years makes everyone who earned theirs in 4 less then a simpleton.
Apparently you lack the brain capacity to understand the way this world operates and live in a fictional fantasy land where everyone has a “right” to screw up other people’s lives and value themselves above society.
I set forth this possible scenario because the article itself mentions “conflicting reports” but fails to elaborate on them. If the AP had a shred of decency they would have included those “conflicting reports” in the article.
September:01:2008 - 03:28
Regarding the virgin sacrifice, let’s see if other got it while you didn’t
“earning a B.A. degree in one and a half years”
now tell me how do you know that?
Every message you wrote so far (and I am talking pages) is full of assumptions with no basis.
Nothing more needs to be said on my side. You keep looking more pathetic with every message.
September:01:2008 - 03:47
I made assumptions on the circumstances surrounding the girls executions. I clearly stated that.
I am weary of the media for points outlined in my previous posts, they are anything but fair and balanced.
Anyone can see from the loaded language, using terms such as “honor killings” without mentioning the anyone invoking the name of honor when these killings were done, and mentioning conflicting reports without providing any other possible story.
Fair and balanced media reports the facts.
A fair and balanced article would not use the term “honor killing” unless the killers invoked the name of honor. If multiple accounts have been reported then these accounts should be written, the article mentions multiple accounts and lists none of them. Referring to Baulochistan as a “Conservative Province” illustrates an agenda on the part of the writer.
The ironic thing is that I am not necessarily for or against the events that unfolded, however I know that the media approaches events extremely simplistically (and one would be hard to pressed to deny the declining standards in our society that have manifested in the absurd side show that is CNN and Foxnews covering Pop Star scandals).
I earned my B.A degree by taking 30 units a semester, it is actually rather easy, I am confident I could complete ANY 4 year program in 2.5 years, if not 1.5 years.
G.E. education is complete nonsense and it represents close to half of one’s College experience, what sets the intelligent and studious apart from the 40% of College Students who Binge Drink, and the 25% that Binge Drink 3 or more times every 2 weeks, is the Major.
I went toward a B.A. in Economics, admittedly the course work and program were not very challenging and a B.S. program would have been much more rewarding and informational, however I learned a number of invaluable things from the program.
Please forgive my spelling and grammatical errors, I hardly reread my Discussion Board posts.
September:01:2008 - 03:54
Saudi in US,
The AP makes the biggest assumption without basis, and that is that this was an “honor” killing. Where does it say the perpetrators invoked the name of honor?
My assumptions have plenty of basis, Amnesty international has dozens of articles and essays condemning the practice of marrying off girls as part of peace treaties and the harsh punishments inflicted on those who refuse.
However I pose the question to you, based on the report from the AP we can see that there are conflicting reports, however where does it say the perpetrators invoked the name of honor?
Also here is a more reliable link as the one on this blog ignores the “accounts vary” portion.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26469519/
That is the most amazing thing. Websites like this and LGF, Stormfront, and anti Islamic websites twist stories even more, sometimes omitting or adding lines from legitimate news sources to rile people up even more.
September:01:2008 - 06:01
It saddens me to read that the tribal customs where the women are treated like chattel continue in Pakistan. These five women will be known as the martrys who had the courage to stand up for their rights and paid the highest price of all for that.
Tariq – get a life and stop ranting like a pagel bandar (assuming you are Pakistani and understand Urdu)
September:01:2008 - 10:01
Some people obviously get off on such things as Israr does. I bet it makes him hard! I am not kidding either. I don’t plan on being any different in Ramadan than I normally am.
Happy Ramadan!
September:01:2008 - 10:27
Let me add Tariq if you are educated please look up “Sadistic Personality Disorde”r…and DSM III-R Criteria.
Help is always out there, you just need to recognize it first
September:01:2008 - 11:21
Tariq says,
It doesn’t matter to me whether the majority of Muslims agrees with me or not. The other 5/6 of humanity does. If anything, it shows that hardline Muslims are out of touch with the world, instead living in (or hoping to live in) an idealistic world far removed from reality.
I do not support adultery. I think it is destructive on the social as well as personal level.
As bad as it is, though, there is no way it should be considered a capital crime.
If you think I have some sort of ‘anti-Muslim’ agenda, I assure you that you are wrong. Having lived most of my life in the Muslim world, I deeply respect Islam and most Muslims. I do not respect those who see Islam as a hammer with which to beat down anyone or anything that offends their personal interpretations of ‘how the world should be’.
Nor do I respect those, no matter their ethnic or religious background, who see woman as chattel property. Women have the same souls and the same rights as men. Their use to settle tribal arguments is no different from slavery.
Slavery used to be the right-thinking custom for thousands of years. That did not make it correct for all time. In fact, starting in the 18th C., it came to be seen for what it was: a gross violation of the rights every human has by virtue of being a human.
Your argument is not with me specifically: it is with the awareness of the vast majority of the world’s population–Muslims included–who understand human rights to apply to all humans, no matter their sex.
September:01:2008 - 11:23
No man, no tribal council has the right to force anything on women.
”Sufferings” in any kind of dispute can always be solved in ways which do not entail the suffering of women.
Sparky, glad you are not changing, wouldn’t want you any different!
September:01:2008 - 11:27
John you are so good when you tell someone the way it BE. I love IT! How many sons do you have?
I would want my daughters to marry someone with your character.
Aafke I love YOU…
September:01:2008 - 12:00
Sparky: Just one son, age 23. You’d best tell your daughters to get a move on, though… he’s the object of an intense hunt! : )
September:01:2008 - 14:25
These murders were discovered due to the work of the Asian Human Rights Commission. Their report, plus a list of people to contact can be found here: http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2008/2969/
September:01:2008 - 15:18
Thank you for the link and information.
September:01:2008 - 16:20
Are you people mad?
Have you not heard of utilitarianism, or concepts of the Social Good.
I fail to see how anyone can say that these women should not go through with arranged marriages that would save dozens if not hundreds of lives or decades if not centuries.
Yes it is sadistic to want to protect those who have done no wrong this world, it is sadistic to stick up for the most innocent victims from any conflict and crime.
John what is your take the draft?
John you seem powerfully ignorant, adultery supposedly has nothing to do with this crime, why would you say
“Nor do I respect those, no matter their ethnic or religious background, who see woman as chattel property. Women have the same souls and the same rights as men. Their use to settle tribal arguments is no different from slavery.”
I said Islam does not sanction this type of arrangement.
I said that this type of arrangement, which is common in that part of the world, SAVES people from suffering and misery.
People like are clearly confused, you believe “human rights” something that was used as a slogan and forged by the heads of a bunch of imperialist White States in 1948 is some kind of God’s decree that must be applied to everyone else.
Men like are less then men, if you think that any actions should be permitted that can deprive a child of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness you are sick indeed.
I wait for the day that White society completely degenerates into what we see in the African American Community, where 68% of children are illegitimate and born in unstable relationships, where 50% of teenage girls in that community have at least one STD, and see how they are propped up by the rest of American Society (although there are some African Americans who make a very meaningful contribution to the American Economy, the group as a whole are leeches).
All of these sufferings are tied with your so called new code of “morality” or what I call demented self gratification at the expense of society.
Also John you show your inability to comprehend, I was talking about the article, unless you are a member of the AP and contributed to this article, I fail to see how you can take my criticism of the article as me accusing you of having an agenda, which you clearly do.
So basically what I gather from the confused individuals on this board is that a rape victim should support a rapist, that a man and woman have a right to engage in a relationship that will bring about offspring yet have no means or intention to support them. That a woman or man can infect their partner and even child as they are being born with AIDS but somehow not be punished. That the few can force the many suffer alongside them. Man you guys have some screwed up logic. Oh and the concept of “human rights” which was forged by a bunch of White Imperialists should be forced on the rest of the world.
Geez you guys are demented.
Decent Human beings seek to mitigate suffering not spread suffering and most people on this board would spread suffering.
Yes Bendu I am a “fool,” LOL. Why don’t you grow up and realize that not everyone is blessed with the security of not living with someone else having their foot on your back. Or that their are people trying to ensure that everyone is born in a family with the same resources (IE a mother and a father).
September:01:2008 - 16:45
I’m very aware of the philosophy of utilitarianism. It does not apply, however, when we talk about trading human life for things like social convenience, business convenience, or–in most cases–even social justice. An argument can be made for taking the life of a murderer, though I don’t accept that argument.
Killing young women so that village bosses can feel good about themselves is about as far down the list of legitimate concerns for ‘utilitarianism’ as it’s possible to get. What next? Killing women so the village elders have more henna to put in their beards?
Women should not be forced to go through arranged marriages in which they have no say in the matter. That is tantamount to slavery. If they are being forced into marriages when they are not even adults, it is still slavery but even more heinous.
What do I think of the draft? Do you mean a military draft in times of war? In that instance, I might support it as a necessity, but it would depend. I was certainly enrolled in and eligible for the US military draft during the Vietnam War. My son is registered with the Selective Service now, even when there is no draft, because it is legally required. If a draft comes back, I’d definitely want to know the details. If I didn’t like the details, I’d also definitely work to get it stopped.
I take your criticism of the AP article as a rather typical, thin-skinned critique of anything that might reflect badly on either Pakistan or the way in which Islam is used to protect traditional, customary practices which are at odds with the common understanding of human rights. If your complaint is not such, you’ve not done enough to distinguish it from the type.
There is nothing in any of the comments here–by anyone–that support punishing the victims of a rape; there is nothing here that suggests people have children they cannot support, in or out of wedlock. That’s your extrapolation. Your seeing such support is not a good indicator of your reading comprehension, no matter how clever you might be.
Might I suggest you take some time and actually read what’s written here, and in the comments? At least do so before you stop by to impute people’s motives. It would certainly help you to argue your point rationally.
September:01:2008 - 16:55
Tariq,
Have you noticed that you bring many arguments for every problem in the world has to defend your 1 position. That is a tool of the weak that cannot defend a specific position. Since you are so smart, read up on Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate. You obviously have no clue how to debate. Of course in your mind you think you are winning an argument here, but you should realize everyone sees through your anger, your lack of focus on the topic and your use of a crutch like I have a BA. Your degree and how long it took you to get it does not impress anyone here, because it is not a big deal everyone you are talking to has many of them. It is a crutch for the weak to rely on such arguments.
Really the entire argument is whether the Social Good outweigh Individual rights. I am trying to point this out to you, since you cannot stay on topic (you are a scatter brain). The fact that people do not agree with you on which side is correct does not make them Sick or Demented. It just makes you a fool because you demand that others have to agree.
I do not support utilitarianism as it lost its utility. Hence my reference to the Virgin sacrifice, the idea there is the virgin was chosen to prevent the wrath of the Gods on the entire tribe. You probably do not get it still, but I noticed your line of thinking from the first message.
Individualism is a better ideal as it provides for a just outcome for every member of society. Yes it is hard to implement, but humans have produced a complex set of laws that makes it possible. We live in an advanced world now and any modern government with strong will can produce that type of justice for its citizens. What the debate is about here is whether the Pakistani government can implement this just system for its citizens. Certainly many of its citizens realize this and they do have a constitution and laws that allow them to implement it.
It has nothing to do with the 10 other issues that you throw around. Start focusing on one topic…
September:01:2008 - 17:32
You guys are stupid.
Who said these women were killed for “honor,” to make the village elders feel good about themselves or anything else?
You guys are truly insane and live in some fantasy land.
The whole story hinges on one report from the AP that has been spread around by websites like this and MSNBC, CNN and Foxnews have yet to carry this.
Furthermore the article is deeply flawed as the points I outlined, if you think this is honest journalism then may I suggest the “Birth of a Nation” to you.
The “Wrath of the Gods” is a lie, the neighboring tribe stomping on and burning your village is a reality.
John how stupid are you? What in the article even suggests Islam was apart of these killings? Or that Islam was used to justify these killings? Apparently being able to operate a computer does equate to having reading comprehension skills.
No where do the tribesmen invoke the name of honor, no where do the tribesmen say that this was the “will” of God.
What article does present is one purported account of an incident in some backwater village in Balouchistan and one Balouchi Law Maker who is defending the customs of his people. Alternative accounts are acknowledged but not addressed. Is that Journalism?
Honestly how stupid can you people be.
Saudi in the US, if you allow behavior that permits others to suffer then you are sick and demented. Everyone has a duty to mitigated the suffering of others but you seem to think you can enjoy yourself at the expense of others.
As for me addressing multiple issues, I fail to see how they are irrelevant, this article is trash, if it had substance it would have been followed up with more stories on the said events, however it is just one persons attempt to generate publicity surrounding their article without providing an indepth analysis of the events. To acknowledge alternative accounts and not list them is Journal Journalism.
I am glad that the U.S. is not run by people like you, we very much operate on a Collectivist system even though most are in a state of denial about it.
And for Saudi in the US, it should matter to you in how long it took me to obtain my B.A., society should strive to work toward the optimal level if it wishes to remain free. Inevitably a society that is more industrious then the West’s will emerge and have the strength to offer another world view that will make yours seem obsolete.
September:01:2008 - 17:35
*To acknowledge alternative accounts and not list them is Yellow Journalism.
September:01:2008 - 17:47
LMAO Tariq, you are just a mad person. Trying to have a logical debate with you is useless. Your neurons made all the wrong connections. It is a hardware problem that I can not fix. Only meds can help you.
Wishing you a speedy recovery…
September:01:2008 - 18:35
I think it is you who are Mad,
You have failed to provide any substance in your argument. I clearly illustrated why I think this article is misrepresenting the events, I offered an alternative explanation of the events based on common practices in that region, and I sought to illustrate that given that alternative explanation the events in question should be viewed in an entirely different light.
All you have done is say “Individual Freedom” is superior to collective welfare.
I then posed issues to you and John about where “individual freedom” has gone amuck and caused suffering, however rather then debate those issues you ignore them.
You seem like some cultist acolyte who has no desire to improve this world and prevent innocent individuals from suffering.
Yet I am mad?
September:01:2008 - 18:39
Saudi in the U.S.,
You seem to be a paradox, just like the author of the article you draw wild assumptions without the slightest bit of fact. You label this an “honor killing” when the issue of honor is not mentioned at all.
Also the particular website that this article is linked from omits the mentioning of alternative accounts.
please look at the WHOLE article and note the existence of alternative accounts.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26469519/
“Accounts vary
The incident allegedly occurred one month ago in Baba Kot, a remote village in Jafferabad district, after the women decided to defy tribal elders and arrange marriages in a civil court, according to the Asian Human Rights Commission.
They were said to have been abducted at gunpoint by six men, forced into a vehicle and taken to a remote field, where they were beaten, shot and then buried alive, it said, accusing local authorities of trying to hush up the killings.
One of perpetrators was allegedly related to a top provincial official, it said.
Accounts about the killings have varied, largely because police in the tribal region have been uncooperative. Activists and lawmakers said a more thorough investigation needed to be carried out.
The Asian Human Rights Commission, however, said the two older women may have been related to some of the teenage girls and were apparently murdered because they were sympathetic to their wishes.”
Although we have all engaged in Ad Hominem attacks, however you haven’t addressed the issue of conflicting accounts and why the article xrdarabia links to doesn’t mention that.
September:01:2008 - 18:42
Tariq: You’ve brought very little argument to the fore here: that only AP has reported this (though that story was picked up by other media). You say that some reports note that ‘there’s another side to the story’, but cannot cite just what that side is. You propose some ideas about ‘community values’ then go into rhapsodies about how Western moral values–if they even exist–are utterly corrupt. That’s not argument: that’s waving your hands in the air because you don’t have anything you can point them to.
Can individual freedom run amok? Of course it can… when people take the law into their own hands, for instance. It’s just as bad as when a group decides that it knows best and kills young women for offending community solidarity or community dignity or whatever.
I’d certainly say you’re ‘mad’, in the sense of angry. In the sense of crazy? I won’t go that far just yet.
If you’d like intellectual argument, then let’s pick a point and stick to it, not pull in everything in the world that offends you.
September:01:2008 - 18:48
Since, you do not read and understand the positions I make. I am going to make it into a simple bullet format so you can understand them. This is easy man please get it this time:
1) I never argued the article is wrong or right. What I would like to see is a full investigation by a government that implements laws. You have made many assumptions here about people positions without them expressing those positions.
2) I argued against your ideology that killing people or forcing women into marriage is OK for the benefit of the social good. I never argued the article. Look back and read this time.
3) There is no debate to be had, if you make other people’s positions for them then attack those positions. You simply see things that are not there. That is the ultimate definition of a delusional person and it is the reason I call you mad.
I am serious man, you need a psychologist. What you have shown in your rants and lack of understanding is an imbalanced personality.
September:01:2008 - 18:49
On the matter of ‘conflicting accounts’:
The AP article very clearly says that those who might have a different account aren’t putting it forward.
Do you need a roadmap to understand what that means? It means that the police in the tribal region (who are likely members of the same tribes) do not want to get involved. Whatever their motivation–shame, disgust, not-worth-my-job-ism–there is no ‘other side’ to the story being presented.
If one does not ‘cooperate’ in an investigation, then the argument defaults to the ones who do make the argument. Those who do not take part in the argument, lose the argument. That’s the way it works in law (including Pakistani law); that’s the way it works in real life, with real people.
If you have some reason why I should not take the reports of The Asian Human Rights Commission, please present them.
I do not take the reports of all NGOs at face value. I know that some of them are rather selective in their condemnations, that they have agendas less than pure. I haven’t heard anything to make me consider the Asian Human Rights Commission to be corrupt. If you have, I’m more than happy to hear the details from you. I might even reconsider what I’ve written.
September:01:2008 - 18:51
This debate illustrates your incompetency not my inability to remain a coherent argument.
If you bother to review my comments I began by attacking the validity of the article. Based on previous stories, such as the girl from Qatif, I have seen that the media spins things to make bad situations sound even worse.
I then addressed the issue that the Islamic World does met punishments for crimes that the West would not agree with (however as reported incidents like these would not be supported by any Muslim Jurist, and no individuals invoke the Islamic faith as a defense).
From that point John and others began to exhibit their zealous views regarding “individual freedom” and I high lighted examples when “individual freedom” has resulted in the suffering of untold millions.
From then onward I have had to reiterate several points, such as the fact that the news agency xroadarabia cites does not even contain the whole article, and my critique of the original article. However not one respondent has addressed a single issue I have raised. They have humored some of my assumptions and then drawn absurd conclusions such as “Virgin Sacrifice.”
Indeed it is no wonder that Saudi Arabia languishes behind the rest of the World when individuals like Saudi in the U.S. exist. You are truly mad.
September:01:2008 - 18:54
John listen to yourself, their exist other accounts however they have not been brought forward?
How can we know of other accounts if they haven’t been voiced? Did someone say “oh hey these girls were killed for another reason but i can’t tell you because I am being intimidated?”
If you believe that then you are gullible or simply reaching for a pathetic defense as to why those accounts are not included in the article.
September:01:2008 - 18:59
LOL Saudi in the U.S.,
No where did I say that these individuals should be killed to provide for the betterment of society. I said had they been forced to marry individuals as part of a peace treaty and they refuse that they have broken the law of the tribe and as a result are guilty of treason and it is not simply they were killed for wanting to marry someone of their own choosing, they were guilty of putting themselves above the community and putting that society in danger.
I think you are diagnosing yourself as you have put words in my mouth. Again I must reiterate that I never said these girls were killed to better society or mitigate suffering, I said they would have been punished for putting themselves above the collective community.
And please tell me why doesn’t the article Xroadsarabia link not include the whole article?
September:01:2008 - 19:25
I am going to be fair and let you have the last words. Everyone can judge the trail of comments you left.
Again, I wish you a speedy recovery…
September:01:2008 - 19:33
LOL you are so generous, again ad hominem attacks without addressing a single issue.
I will let you end it with other slanderous attack if you wish to respond.
September:01:2008 - 20:00
Tariq…I don’t believe you looked the word “sadistic” up like I asked you too!
If that is part of the Pakistani culture to do that, to ruthlessly kill and yes I agree with Saudi in the US take on “virgin sacrifices” then I will never set foot in that crazy ass country.
I guess I am stupid! I don’t know who is stupid someone who defends such stupidity or someone who argues and tries to go against such stupidity. Both look pretty stupid…although the latter had a hefty price to pay for being so stupid. May God Rest Their Souls….
September:01:2008 - 20:16
Sparky, your brain operates normally. You got the Virgin Sacrifice comment that made him go mad for 2 days. Thank you for that simple comment. Watch we will get another 3 or 4 posts that go on for pages. By the way add neurotic to the madness evidence, he already took this debate to other sites.
September:01:2008 - 20:17
Again you ignoring what I wrote Sparky and putting words in my mouth.
I said if, if they were arranged to marry members of another tribe as a part of a peace treaty and they choose to not abide by the agreement then their tribe would suffer. To deter future selfish behavior an example would be made of these individuals.
If everyone did their part to mitigate the suffering of others then we wouldn’t have the problems we presently have.
Again don’t put words in my mouth. Sadism is taking pleasure in another’s pain, I nowhere said that I take enjoyment in anyones pain. Ironically the West permits Sadism and Sadomasochist clubs exist in every Western Country and operate legally.
Virgin Sacrifice? Again, I clearly said that if women are promised to another tribe as part of a peace treaty then they should go through with it for the good of the tribe, if they don’t then have betrayed the tribe and put them in harms way. Where does Vrigin Sacrifice come into play? You are stupid.
September:01:2008 - 20:20
LOL Saudi in the US you and Sparky are pitiful, you are not arguing any of the facts, you are twisting events with absurd logic equating the said events to Virgin Sacrifice and you seem to avoid constructive debate and instead take pleasure in causing a rise out of people.
however you failed at causing me madness as you assumed. You fail LOL.
September:01:2008 - 21:16
Tariq Mahmood I do not know what you are representing exactly? Are you Muslim? Your name sounds Muslim. Where is the girl’s say in the marriage. In Islam she cannot be forced to marry anyone (Peace Treaty or Not) without her consent. That is akin to be treated like chattel or merchandise.
Tariq, forcing a woman to marry someone she doesn’t want is sadistic to me.
As far as your comments about Sadism clubs in the States, I don’t know they have those obviously you do. Anyways, nobody is forced to partake in those activities. I still stand by what I said, condoning such ACTS of murder under any circumstance is part of a Sadistic Personality Disorder whether it is in the name of PEACE or not. It is what it is.
If you are from that village, perhaps you would like to elaborate on exactly what goes on their so we can gain some understanding (won’t be appreciation at least from my side) concerning this hunt and murder because no matter how bad you want to label the US or any other country…if you do that shit to somebody that is a violation and you are going to be arrested.
September:01:2008 - 21:42
“you seem to avoid constructive debate and instead take pleasure in causing a rise out of people.”
Actually I went out of my way to provide you my position in 3 simple bullets. And I actually provided you with a summary of my position on individual rights vs collective welfare in an earlier post. Your next reply misinterpreted even those simple points.
There is no debate to be had with you, because you are not capable to understand simple rules of debating. What you do is not debate, it is Ranting at best.
“however you failed at causing me madness as you assumed. You fail LOL.”
I was not attempting to do that, you were mad way before I even came in the picture and you keep proving it.
September:01:2008 - 22:06
I agree Saudi in the US, he is probably ashamed of this ACT deep down but is depserately looking for ways to save face by somehow finding ways to say it is o.k. that a girl be hunted down and killed if she refuses to be the virgin sacrifice of peace.
You did argue it well as did John too put it bluntly and clearly in the beginning. Some people can’t see no matter how you stick in their faces.
September:01:2008 - 22:18
Off topic but is Mr. Tariq Mahomood the new resident troll?
September:01:2008 - 22:28
Hi Olivetheoil…we need you take on this…Mr. Tariq likes calling people stupid
I can say that for sure…
“These are centuries old traditions…” And the penalty for not following those traditions???
A little off topic: IS cannibalism still practiced anywhere in the world today? I sure hope not. I would not want to have Hannibal Lecture invite me for dinner.
September:01:2008 - 22:52
LOL Sparky,
This is way out of topic, but yes Cannibalism is still practiced although sporadically. Here is an article from 1999
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/sea99/indo-dead.htm
I remember these reports during the period when Indonesia almost disintegrated into chaos. Just for a historic background during the socialist period Indonesia did experiment with moving masses of people all over the Islands in a massive social integration projects. This put Muslims and into territories with major cannibal tribes. Everything went ok for years until the central government lost control. At the time the Dayaks tribe went back to their warrior traditions and wanted to cleanse the area of the Muslim settlers. What resulted was a massacre of the Muslim villagers. The real hardcore tribal men wanted to bring back their old traditions and started cannibalizing their neighbors.
September:01:2008 - 23:21
Yes. “The Pleasure of Your Company is Requested” takes on a whole new meaning. Should I be dressed for dinner or will I be dressed as dinner?
Very confusing.
Perhaps Mr. Mahmood who is so admiring of traditions can provide me with pointers.
September:01:2008 - 23:48
I would not have known about this site until this Tariq Mahmood posted on American Bedu’s site. Saudi in US, nice to see you here.
I did a little search and this is another perspective on these honor killings in Pakistan:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2008/08/tale-of-tribal-terror.html
I just do not get it of how anyone can accept this has being honorable or even accept this idea. They certainly do need psychiatric help.
September:02:2008 - 00:43
I posted earlier here and I do not see it. I found this site by accident, after Tariq Mahmood made a post on American Bedu’s site.
It is nice to see you Saudi in US here. I will keep on reading the blog.
September:02:2008 - 00:53
S H: I have all first-time-ever comments in moderation to avoid spam. While I try to check the queue frequently, it can sometimes take a few hours before a comment gets cleared. (Gotta sleep sometime!)
You are very welcome here.
And thanks for the link. It’s very informative. It also shows that a majority of the Pakistani Parliament believes the story to be true.
September:02:2008 - 01:02
John,
Thank you for the welcome. I am enjoying reading your articles. I do understand the first post issue.
Btw, we have another hurricane on the way. I am in the same state as you. Hanna is coming our way with a few more on the back leg. It looks like a busy hurricane season here.
Be safe and thank you for this wonderful blog. It is a joy.
Regards
September:02:2008 - 01:10
S H,
Thanks for the article. And yes I agree with you, there is too much justifying that goes on. Either using everyone else is evil argument, or it has always been done that way. All are just excuses to justify what is clearly criminal killing, if proven by an investigation of course.
I am glad you found blog. It is one of the best. John keeps a good balance of stories and opinions. I think you will enjoy it as much as I do.
September:02:2008 - 01:24
Saudi in US,
You are welcome. I had to dig to find some articles on this subject. Of how people can justify such actions is beyond me. Pakistanis and people from our part of the world are use to these conspiracy theories and they feed on it. It is us against them mentality. We must stop this blame game and take responsibility.
I am very delighted to find this blog. I have been trying to catch up with the many articles. I truly appreciate the unbiased nature of how John is trying to maintain here.
I am going to get some sleep and catch you all another time.
I do hope Ramadan is going well for you.
Regards
September:02:2008 - 03:06
Places like Baluchistan, Pakistan’s Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) and the FATA (Federally Administrative Tribal Areas) are truly like the Dark Ages. They are ruled under tribal rule and continue to practice the barbaric practices such as “killing in the name of honor” if resistance to what the tribal leaders view as a reasonable request. What makes this even all the more appalling is that according to the article is that a Pakistani lawyer defended the actions of the tribal leaders on the decision to shoot and bury the girls while alive albeit injured. Although not stated in the article, it would not surprise me in the least that the lawyer is Baluch himself.
The tribal people of Baluchistan practice Islam. And as pointed out in an earlier comment, treating a woman as chattel and pushing her into a forced marriage is not condoned in Islam. Even if the proposed union is to bring conflicting tribes together or some other issue, the marriage should not be forced if the woman does not agree.
So as I stated in my initial comment, these young women have become martyrs for standing up for their rights and it is still beyond comprehension and appropriate words to fathom how the Baluch tribal leaders felt it was justifiable to have these young women killed. They could have been banished from their tribe. That has also been known to happen.
This article further illustrates why during all my times living in Pakistan I never went to Baluchistan although I did make it throughout the reat of the country to include some of the FATA.
September:02:2008 - 04:00
S H your reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking. Nowhere did I endorse what you call Honor Killings. Nor am I ashamed to condemn anyone who puts their own self interest above the communities (at the same time I strongly believe any man incapable of protecting his women is less then a man, which everyone reading should interpret as a sweeping condemnation of the Muslim World).
However I will never justify two wrongs making a right. If a person prides their own welfare above the group they should be punished, and that punishment is to be decided by their legal authority. I put forth this explanation because alternative accounts were suggest but non listed.
I will also tell you that I do not condemn the execution of Du’a Khalil Aswad, the Yezidi woman who ran off to marry a Muslim. Muslims have been persecuting the Yezidi (and may I say rightly so) for centuries, for man or woman to abandon their people and join the ranks of the enemy is not a crime to go unpunished.
The people on this board have extremely simplistic thinking process, they are also prone to conspiracy theories thinking that the Islamic World has some systematic and consistent approach to law and order. Furthermore extreme racism is exhibited toward the Central Muslim, that is the Arab, Iranian, South Asian Muslim, and Turkish people. We are painted as savages who slaughter our women (when most individuals murdered in our societies are men) in the name of “honor” when honor is hardly ever in invoked in killings. The whole concept of “honor” killings is a myth. Although individuals are sometimes killed in the name of honor, just as in this story, killings that have nothing to do with honor and honor is never even invoked are labeled as honor killings.
Please look at how a website with real journalistic integrity covered the story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7592404.stm
This article does not throw around the term “honor,” nor does it suggest interestingly enough indeed ordered by a tribal council although tribal councils have ordered far worse things and it is not unbelievable.
Non of you debated the facts.
And to American Bedu if you are so disgusted by the Central Muslim why would decide to marry and live in the most restrictive Muslim Society in the World (even the Balouch has very restrictions on his women then the Saudi).
LOL SH I hardly believe in conspiracy theories, however unlike you I choose to not so readily accept the moral standards of others and at the same time try to understand the circumstances surrounding others lives.
The people on this board seem to be filled with baseless self righteousness, seeing the world as black and white and not understanding that some actions need to be taken to maintain the welfare of society if though they may be despised.
I am the first to condemn the Egyptian practice (that has spread to as far as Indonesia because of the filth Shaafi Muslim) of cutting the genitals of women. Egyptians and those who practice this have no place in Islam, it is needless maiming women.
However when anyone puts themselves above the welfare of society, whether it be running a red light purposefully or cooperating with ones enemies, then they need to be appropriately punished, as their actions put the rest of everyone in trouble.
If these girls were killed for simply marrying men of their own choosing when they were unengaged then I would say action must be taken to deliver justice.
I am the first to say these tribal elders need to be taken out back and shot as they reject the concept of the brotherhood, yet again I will never romanticize individuals who put themselves above the community.
September:02:2008 - 04:23
Tariq Mahmood, the only person here that doesn’t make sense is you. Killing women for choosing a spouse, killing people for inter-tribal/inter-racial/inter-whatever marriages, racism is rife against “central muslims”? The only racist person here, clearly, is you.
September:02:2008 - 04:24
Tariq: You’re awfully quick to condemn people to death.
Did you read the BBC article you linked? It states, right there in black and white:
‘This house’ is the Senate of the Republic of Pakistan which is, last time I looked, an Islamic state.
What was done to these women is, by definition, ‘honor killing’. The went against the tribal elders, impugned their dignity and honor. If that’s not your definition, then we’re speaking different languages. Yours appears to be an idiolect, comprehensible to you and you alone.
September:02:2008 - 04:40
John the BBC article does not mention any tribal council ordering the execution (or murder) of these girls.
Furthermore killing someone who defies you or insults you is far from an honor killing unless you specifically invoke the name of honor.
A kind from a high school in my city was killed for egging another’s man car, is that an hour killing by your definition?
If someone says I am killing in the name of honor, then yes it is an HONOR KILLING, however nowhere does anyone invoke honor.
With you logic this is an honor killing
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3693/is_199803/ai_n8805624
And the 1500 women who are killed by their intimate lovers every year in the U.S. is an honor killing.
The Senate in Pakistan is one of the highest levels of legal authority in the country, its rulings must be carried out without hesitation, however the Balouch does recognize the authority of the Federal Government and will not without blood and steel.
You are grasping to label this as an honor killing. Without your logic half of murders in the U.S. can be “honor killings” IE that man insulted another man, his honor and dignity were questioned, the man killed him not in anger but because his honor was assaulted, an honor killing was performed.
September:02:2008 - 04:53
John,
I know this personality type. This guy will not stop making a fool of himself unless we all say he was right, we are all stupid and we are honored for him to give us an education and show us the light. Our combined experiences of 100′s of years are minuscule against his out this world brain powers that can finish the toughest Harvard program in 1 year (or was that 1.5 years I am really too lazy to look it up).
I am serious about the neuron connections, it is in the hardware. You will never be able to have a normal logical talk with him.
Just my 2 cents on this.
Anyway it was good for a laugh…
September:02:2008 - 06:19
Saudi in the US,
You hide behind your supposed “wisdom” gathered from your years on this earth. Ironically a group of a dozen 70 year old Tribal Chieftans in the FATA of Pakistan who support the custom of Vani (arranged political marriages) you would brush them off as lunatics.
I mentioned my degree to illustrate that I am not some crackpot or crazy spewing vile venom from their basement. I am clearly an individual who has achieved what few others have and I recognize that what I have achieved is within the grasp of most, however they choose not to avail themselves of it.
Nobody on this board has responded to any issues I have raised, nor have they offered any solutions to the issues that have been discussed.
American Bedu it is sad that your years of travel have not made you more acute to the diversity in culture and world view among people in a region. Every village in Pakistan approaches life differently, and even within villages people have different world views, however you have taken a broad brush and condemn Balouchistan with your comments.
All of you seem extremely immature and incapable of dialouge. Instead you label those who have a different world view crazy and fail to explain the flaws in their logic (and what flaw can their be when a person is saying that actions should be taken to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number).
September:02:2008 - 07:18
A good troll invigorates the discussion from time to time.
There has been an awful lot of talk about traditions and cultures, I always wonder why a tradition or culture shoud equal a ”good thing” and not to be contested?
Killing women because they happen to have a mind of their own is not a good thing, so a ”tradition” which claims so is a BAD tradition and should be discontinued.
Anyway, there are other traditions, older traditions, there are very old traditions that connected all women to the great mother godess, considering all women holy and precious.
These far older traditions would condemn any evil troll who carelessly disregarded a woman’s wish for a fulfilled life, or who would even contemptiously gloss over her torturous death in the name of ”tribal politics”.
In the name of the oldest traditions on earth I’d say: let’s cull the trolls from the gene-pool! We might end up with a very small number of males, but men aren’t that important in keeping a species going, and without all these ”traditional” human males, the world would become a much better place.
September:02:2008 - 09:36
No, Tariq, there’s no requirement to have someone utter the magic words in order to understand and label their actions. Pederasts call their abhorrent acts ‘kindness’ and ‘love’; all else know them as child rape. Perpetrators do not have any particular privilege when it comes to labeling: that comes from outside.
Do let’s do a quick check online for the definition:
[About.com]
Sound familiar?
BTW, nothing in this (or our) definition is used to defame Muslims or Pakistanis in general. Honor killings transcend ethnicity and religion. They happen among Christians in Spain, Italy, and Lebanon; they happen in the US; they happen in India.
Just for academic purposes, you might also want to learn about the difference between ‘honor killing’ and ‘crime of passion’, but the difference may be too subtle for you.
We would be happy to respond to a point you raise if you would only raise it clearly. Your comments bounce around and when one tries to respond, we’re told we’re avoiding the question.
Comments so far have said honor killings, e.g., killing women for not accepting marriages arranged for them, is barbaric murder. It does not matter if the marriages are arranged by parents or by communities. A marriage in which a woman (or a man) does not have the right to refuse without being punished is the equivalent of slavery.
Two points there: honor killings and forced marriage. Let’s pick one and stick to it.
Thanks.
PS: I’m sure American Bedu will be flattered by your assumption concerning her age.
September:02:2008 - 12:28
Here’s an Pakistan women’s bodies exhumed“>update on the Pakistani ‘honor killings’ from the BBC:
September:02:2008 - 14:22
Tariq,
“All of you seem extremely immature and incapable of dialouge. Instead you label those who have a different world view crazy and fail to explain the flaws in their logic”
There is no dialogue with a mad man. And I actually explained to you why you sound like a mad man. Go read it. All of the issues you have raised were addressed from others point of view. Your problem is that you do not accept that people disagree with you.
The issue of treating women like slaves or killing people with no criminal trial is fundamental to or morals. There is no justifying it. You seem not to accept that there are core believes that people hold and no matter how many times you write one of your long messages, it is not going to change such CORE values.
“I simply think you are immoral for supporting these actions.”
I know you have a hard time reading and understanding simple bullets so I am boiling it down to you to 1 snetence. Hopefully you get it now.
September:02:2008 - 17:15
Saudi in the US thank you for the link about cannabalism. I would have never known. That was sad, frightening and interesting at the same time.
September:03:2008 - 04:10
I was quite surprised to see the wild tangents that Tariq went off on with his comments, his assumptions, and the name calling he did. Tariq, your insults are very unbecoming and will fail to win you supporters if you are trying to convince others of your viewpoints. Didn’t you notice that no one else took your side? Just because you earned your MA in 1.5 years (woo hoo!) doesn’t automatically mean that you are right about everything and everyone else is wrong or stupid.
Tariq said, “Furthermore killing someone who defies you or insults you is far from an honor killing unless you specifically invoke the name of honor.” This argument is just plain nonsense. So, let me get this right. Tariq is saying that It can’t be CALLED an honor killing unless the person doing the killing SAYS it’s an honor killing? Who made this rule up?
Any debater knows that you never attack the individual, you attack the argument. Tariq needs to look up “Ad Hominem” himself because that’s exactly what he is doing while he’s accusing others of it.
I was reading a post by Nzingha that she did recently and thought that one of her paragraphs expresses perfectly what Tariq needs to understand. Nzingha said, “Personally I tend not to have respect for individuals or groups which attack another individual or group’s position by attacking that person or group instead of the position itself. Give me something of substance in reaction to a position rather than a school yard mentality which thinks that calling names will bully another into submission. Not only is this an intellectual fallacy which doesn’t support ones position at all but it is also in violation of basic Islamic manners. And I can’t help but think if one can’t get the basics down how right can they possibly be about higher level issues.”
September:03:2008 - 09:39
Good afternnon to all,
here is an other article taken from my favorite Pakistani newspaper;
for readers that had not seen it yet they actually talk about “honour killings”.
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16992
September:03:2008 - 10:24
Michel: Thanks for the link to the article. A confused mess, indeed, though it does appear that a serious investigation is under way.
September:03:2008 - 10:38
I like this statement: *Asif Nawaz has even attacked the English language media for giving a “sensational flavour”*
Increadible, a heinous, evil, disgusting, demonic act like killing five defenselss women and burying them alive, and then considering news reporting it as sensational????
What did he expect? A report on some interesting folkloristic habits in Pakistan?
I am disgusted that the whole world does not rise up in disgust and contempt.
But then these were only women, and crimes against women are deemed less important everywhere on the planet.
To pour some more flames on the argument; I would not only call these ”honour-killings” but also ”acts of terrorism” because that’s the other goal of these inhuman killings: to make sure other women are so scared they don’t dare to do anthing themselves. The two elder women were killed and buried alive because they dared to object to the killing of the girls.
This is a campaign of terrorrism against women. One clear message: do as you are told or this is what you will suffer.
And Tariq, women are human: they can suffer! Suffering of women is not ever less important than the suffering of men. Forcing women to throw away their lives by marrying God knows who is wrong! Whatever the reasons!
Killing women is a crime.
Burying dying women alive is an increadibly evil thing to do!
These bastards will burn in hell for it.
As will those who defend it.
September:03:2008 - 10:49
Aafke very well said…I feel with you
“These bastards will burn in hell for it.
As will those who defend it.”
And yes it is way to “teach them a good lesson” this is what happens when you go against what we want…
September:03:2008 - 14:42
Susie of Arabia,
I initially said that John was simple minded in his approach to this article. As are you, that is not an Ad Hominem attack, I was attacking his approach to the article not him as a person.
However everyone else on this forum saw fit to call me insane, so I have retorted in kind.
Again we have another person that can not read nor properly evaluate things.
I never claimed oh look at me I got my 4 year degree in 1.5 years so I know all (as Saudi in US claimed their age along with everyone else’s proved they were correct). Clearly an individual who goes out and does something few if any have ever done before is not a person to be taken lightly nor simply brushed off. Besides I think anyone can get their degree that quickly, college is a joke for the most part, and most people know that.
LOL so I guess this is an Honor Killing.
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,414545,00.html
Ohio Teens shot dead after egging a persons car, clearly the man was dishonored when his car was egged. This is the logic you are using.
If one person kills another because they feel they have been insulted it becomes an honor killing in your eyes, then that would mean plenty of honor killings happen in the West every year.
Afake worthless crap like and the people on this board will burn in hell. For one I fail to see exactly what all of you in infinite wisdom and advanced age have done to better the communities you live in. It is also disgusting how you refuse to debate the issues.
I don’t care if it was a group of 1000 men, if they are willfully disobeying the community and placing their own self interest above the collective benefit of society leading to the suffering of Children, Women, and Men, then they need to be set an example of.
Although the tribe or nation that continually renders tribute and fails to empower themselves to fight against oppression is clearly guilty of the SAME CRIME.
Apparently none of you understand what I have been saying, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO PUT THEIR OWN BENEFIT ABOVE SOCIETIES, whether they be a man, woman, or child. However action is not the only way for a person to put themselves above society, inaction is another way people value themselves above others, everyone who is capable must improve the lives of those around them and strengthen the community.
Everyone on this board clearly has their own biases, that is why they refuse to listen to what I have written and instead formulate fanciful ideas and accuse me of advocating them.
In the FATA of Pakistan a practice known as Vani occurs in which marriages of individuals between two parties are contracted to end hostilities.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/21/pakistan.declanwalsh
This world is not some game where everyone is born with the same resources at their disposal. If a group of people are being bullied by another more powerful group of people, who can fault them for attempting to gain a reprieve in hostilities to strengthen themselves and end their subjugation, or should they simply be slaughtered in vain?
Ironically everyone on this board some how think that women suffer dissportionately then men in the Islamic world. In reality the Islamic world is characterized by the stratified elite abusing the lower classes, sometimes the abuser is a man other times it is a woman, sometimes the abused is a man sometimes it is a woman.
Anyways in this case it is questionable if a tribal council ordered the murder of these girls (the BBC did not mention it in their reporting of the story) and these women could have been killed for any number of reasons that are most likely criminal and the individuals who killed these women should be brought to justice.
However everyone on this board in their self righteous tone and immature attitude fail to argue against my position. No one has the right to harm others through their actions, at times that may include succumbing to unfair treatment. I pray that everyone on this board is put into a situation where either themselves or others are forced to make painful concessions for the good of the group and that some individuals fail to go through with those concessions and all of you suffer.
Clearly I have been wasting my time debating with half wit individuals who seem to suffer a variety mental delusions. For one they seem to think they have the Sole power in deciding if a murder is an “honor killing” failing to take into consideration why the accused committed the crime (how killing someone who insulted you is an honor killing is anyone’s guess). Furthermore the individuals on this board seem to label me as some mysoginist for dare suggesting that a woman, as well as a man, must make concessions at times to maintain the safety of the community that raised them and nurtured them. Whether then delving into your demented minds to come up with explanations of what I have said, try to actually read what I have said.
I grow tired of reading the same comments over and over from people who lack the ability to read a sentence and comprehend, I MAY end up letting all of the deranged sociopaths have the last word.
September:03:2008 - 14:52
Susie in Arabia,
Here are some of the insults directed at me, why don’t you attack fair and balanced and correct your fellow comrades in arms.
“Saudi in US Said: Post 12
03:00,
Tariq,
You cannot follow my logic, because you are simply stupid. It is a 2 step logic, that is beyond your simpleton thinking.”
American Bedu Said: Post 17
06:01,
Tariq – get a life and stop ranting like a pagel bandar (assuming you are Pakistani and understand Urdu)
Sparky Said: Post 19
10:27,
Let me add Tariq if you are educated please look up “Sadistic Personality Disorde”r…and DSM III-R Criteria.
Help is always out there, you just need to recognize it first
September:03:2008 - 14:56
Also no one has yet to address why the article cited in this blog cuts and pastes from an AP article omitting information in the original source.
Also no one has addressed the points I made about questionable reporting from the AP article itself.
Instead I have been accused of supporting tradition, when I was and have been the whole time saying that had these girls been given in marriage as deal between two tribes and broke it off they would have put the whole tribe at risk and would ultimately have caused untold suffering on their tribe.
Again people have dodged the issues, been abusive to me, and put words in my mouth. Indeed it is impossible to argue with a bunch delusional fools, obviously everyone on this board has the same mindset and the people who frequent this blog are the weak minded individuals who wish to surround themselves with like minded people and envelope themselves in a fantasy world.
September:03:2008 - 14:57
Look Tariq you said that these girls should pay the price of (whatever it may be) having followed their own whims and not adhering to the desires of the tribal traditions and treaties; thus causing more harm.
Simply you are a supporter of this type of behavior and nothing any of us said sparked some compassion in your soul. Congratulations! Be proud of yourself. I hope you are never hunted down and killed for your beliefs and sticking to your grounds whatever they may be!
September:03:2008 - 15:27
Poor Tariq, we ruffed you up a little, cry me a river.
However, it is OK for 5 women to loose their lives for no crime. And all you are worried about is not justice for these women, but your over sized ego and whether we should call it Honor Killing or not. Who cares, I want justice for these women. A full investigation and the result shown to the world. Also, it will be nice to see the Pakistani government have enough courage to punish the criminals, if they were found guilty.
September:03:2008 - 15:40
All I can say is just wow, you guys seem to troll this board constantly.
Also again putting words in my mouth, I said IF (as the AP article mentioned alternative accounts and did not list those alternative accounts, I assumed a common practice that I am not necessarily opposed to as it upholds the safety of many times more then it endangers).
I am not ruffled up, just deeply shocked that grown adults can behave so childishly, then again most of you are Muslims so I could expect nothing less. It is unfortunate to be in such an age where my brethren have been brainwashed into believing in suicidal cultic outlook of the world that will only result in their subjugation.
It is not OKAY for 5 women to be killed for no crime. However if 5 people’s actions break a peace treaty then they did commit a crime and they should be punished. However I proposed that hypothetical explanation simply because the AP article doesn’t mention the alternative accounts which IS YELLOW JOURNALISM.
I am not using caps to demonstrate anger but in hopes that those highlighted parts will stick out and sink in.
If those women were killed for simply wanting to choosing their husbands (with no treaty guaranteeing them to another to prevent bloodshed) then I would gladly aid anyone in forming a militia to go down to that backward crap hole and eliminate those sick dogs.
However unlike the brainwashed fools on this board I am not quick to believe the big bad Muslim boogie man story. Nor do I believe individuals have a “right” to selfishly put others at risk with their selfish choices.
September:03:2008 - 15:46
O.K. Tariq I am gonna be real with you. First off, sorry if I offended you with asking you to research the personality disorder. Yes, I do tend to think of people in those terms.
Anyways, please let me know what would happen to the tribes well being in this outright disobedience?
Are there other solutions to tribal issues besides offering unwilling brides? Doesn’t that go against Islam?
Would these women be treated with dignity and respect by an opposing tribe in such marriages? Would they mistreat her or treat her well?
Would you sacrifice yourself for the tribe? Would you marry a 600 pound stinky ugly women for your tribe or a woman who is so disgusting you couldn’t bare to even look at her? ( I am serious here…NO offense to fat people…some people like large people )
If you are unwilling to answer these questions, then I am done speaking to you and wish you a happy journey.
September:03:2008 - 15:48
Also I clearly stated that I do not approve of killing someone for wanting to choose who they marry, however when someone’s actions put the whole group at risk they have committed a crime.
I pray no one on this board is put into a position of authority, whoever they have authority over will surely suffer because of their inability to make such a painful decision.
Also for those who think this is an “honor killing” get over yourselves because until the accused say they killed these women to uphold the tribes honor I don’t buy that.
No wonder the Islamic World is so backward, people like Saudi in the US live in some fanciful world that is incapable of making difficult decisions for the good of society. No wonder America is increasingly starting to look like the stratified Islamic and Third World with this extreme view of individualism that subjugates others as slaves for the benefit of the few.
September:03:2008 - 16:00
Sparky to answer your question in all seriousness yes I would. Of course I desire to have an slim attractive wife and I believe that it is a crime to grotesquely overweight as an individual is consuming far in excess then they should to live and are doing so at the expense of others (whether by taking from others now, or depleting the fertility of fields and thus reducing the available food for future generations).
I would not hesitate to sacrificing myself for my country and my people. It should be unbelievable either has millions upon millions have. However unlike some of those who have and choose to remain silent on those who choose not too, I detest those who are unwilling to sacrifice for the good of others.
Now as far as the abuse of potential brides, it undoubtedly happens. So does the occasional conclusion in which the woman is worshipped by her dribble of a husband (point in case imperial concubines such as Hurrem who was the Ottoman Emperor Suleyman favorite concubine and had his own son killed from his marriage to have her child ascend to the throne).
Regardless of either scenario everyone is bound to help protect and strengthen their tribe regardless of the costs.
September:03:2008 - 16:04
I do not believe we are meant to live in this world for our self gratification (although it is entirely possible for everyone to happy without harming one another).
It is everyones duty to strengthen themselves and society. Life is not fair, some are born with no problems what so ever and they make their own problems, others do everything right but become burdened with others problems, however two wrongs don’t make a right, and to not uphold the safety of society is a crime.
September:03:2008 - 16:24
Tariq, I appreciate your honesty and I believe that inside you do have motivation towards good. However, I would really like if you could answer my other questions especially the one that asks,
“Are there other solutions to tribal issue besides offering unwilling brides? Doesn’t that go against Islam?”
Also would you not agree with American Bedu’s comment regarding that the women could have been excommunicated from their tribes instead of savagely made an example of.
I understand your points but I can just see other solutions to problems. Do you see where I am going with this?
Thank you
September:03:2008 - 16:46
Tariq, you appear to be an intelligent and educated person.
However, your world-view appears to be so fixed that if sufficient evidence is not available to support it, you create distractions to avoid seeing this, and even invent hypotheticals to build your argument upon, then insist upon the truth of the result. This approach does have some validity in logic and mathematics, but there are limits to its utility.
In my (nonprofessional) opinion you are at the edge of going completely mad.
September:03:2008 - 17:21
I’m trying to make sense of all those convoluted comments and trying to be diplomatic and not naming any names…
okay…one individual believes that it is okay for women to be “sacrificed” if a woman’s union to a man from a different tribe will be beneficial for the respective tribes and that she should not have a say or protest against such an order.
In the case of Baluchistan, five young woman did indeed protest and that cost them their lives.
An isolated viewer implies that is permissible because they were disrespecting the needs of the tribe(s) and thereby going against the tribe they had to face punishment, even if the tribe determined that punishment should be death.
However it should not be overlooked that the people of Baluchistan are also practicing Muslims. Wouldn’t we agree that Islamic law, practices and teachings take precedence over tribal law and customs?
September:03:2008 - 17:59
Crikies, Tariq! Where to begin??
This is a blog. I write about articles I find in the media; I do not republish articles in full unless they’re a paragraph or so long. I take the introductory paragraphs under the assumption that the journalists use the traditional journalistic practice of using an ‘inverted pyramid’ in writing a story. That means that the first paragraph has the critical information, the next adds to it, and so on. This permits articles to be cut from the bottom without losing the most important parts. If something is buried in a paragraph deep into the story it is supposed to be less important. Sometimes, unprofessional journalists (or editors) will literally bury something they don’t want people to read, but have to still have in the piece for decency sake.
I do read articles all the way through to try to catch that. Nothing in this subject article led me to believe skulduggery was going on. The sentence that has you roiled is deep in the story but only says, in effect, ‘some people disagree’.
‘Some people disagree’ is a truism for every story in every newspaper. That’s not news. That’s not important.
Your problem here seems to be that you are angry that no one else here shares your world view about the ‘proper role of women’ in traditional societies. We believe that women have the same rights to autonomy as men; that individual rights are at least as important–if not more important–that ‘social values’. Most of us are aware that ‘social values’ are a social construct, that they are the residue of many years, centuries, perhaps millennia of practice. Some of these may still have value, but many are mere remnants of social processes that may have worked well at one time, but no longer work today. You appear to still be trying to promote the value of buggy whips while society moves toward the post-automobile age.
We seriously disagree with your belief that a tribal treaty outweighs the lives of even a single young woman. To believe otherwise is to accept that women can be treated as property by the tribe, if not individuals. That’s no better.
I understand now what you were trying to get at when you mentioned the draft. Where this differs is that 1) the draft covers all men between certain ages; 2) there are alternatives available to those whose conscience does not permit them to support violence of any sort [conscientious objectors]; 3) they are not killed if they refuse both being drafted and alternative service. Were draft dodgers shot on sight in the US, then you might have a point. As they are not, you do not.
Believe me when I say I am not aquiver with your obtaining your first degree in 1.5 years. It may be unusual, but it’s far from unique.
I have many friends who have done the same. One, in fact, received his BA from Harvard at 16 and has gone on to earn at least six doctorates and two dozen masters degrees. I hold him in awe. His wife, poor benighted thing, only has degrees in American Law, Islamic Law, and Canon Law. I admit to intellectual jealousy toward people who are fluent in more than a dozen languages, too. But that’s me….
September:03:2008 - 19:55
Tariq,
“No wonder the Islamic World is so backward, people like Saudi in the US live in some fanciful world that is incapable of making difficult decisions for the good of society. No wonder America is increasingly starting to look like the stratified Islamic and Third World with this extreme view of individualism that subjugates others as slaves for the benefit of the few.”
Any reasonable person that reads that can tell that you are mad. You have jumped to many conclusions that assumes the worst about others without 1 ounce of backup argument. Read my statement in the quotes below to understand that you can balance individual freedoms vs social good. Balance by definition is not radical.
And, yes you hold a degree according to your message and I have no reason to doubt it. However, a degree does not automatically mean you are intelligent neither that you are educated. All it says you have knowledge of the topics you studied. For people to accept those 2 traits in you; you have to show critical thinking, focus on ideas and being able to grasp concepts (seeing the forest from the trees thing). You have failed to demonstrate that.
I know you attack me every chance you get, because I point out 3 specific truths:
1) You are illogical: I backed that up by analyzing your responses. Every message you write gives us an insight into your critical thinking abilities. Here is a link, hopefully you can learn simple logic from it. http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html
2) That you are mad: I also backed that up by analyzing your delusions and neurotic behavior.
3) You are immoral: because you have no problem with accepting the killing of innocent women and even going farther to justify it.
You can just dismiss what I said as an unfair judgment or you can look at your messages and really evaluate if I have good reasons for my conclusions. In my opinion it is a self assessment that you owe to yourself, which may help you grow as a person. I have taken all the comments you made about me including your opening message to me by calling me SICK and found them without merit. They just sounded like the words of a mad man, because you called everyone here Sick indiscriminately.
You keep complaining about us not understanding your point. We did get it along time ago even with all the ghost rants. You still cannot accept that we simply disagree with you no matter how many times we state that in simple messages to you. Let me try again here it is in clear simple sentences:
“We do not agree with the concept that you have to treat individuals with injustice for the benefit of society. There are systems of laws that can be implemented so social justice can be achieved without resorting to infringing on individual rights. I personally did make a difficult decision to accept that as my moral ground for evaluating justice.
I also understand that there is sensationalism in journalism. I actually see it in the Arabic press also, but I agree with the concept that stories can be far fetched. This is why I only call for a government investigation, I am not ready to buy the idea of a crime committed here at 100%. However, the story is compelling enough to warrant a full investigation. This is not a disagreement we have so quit harping on it.”
Now focus on that statement and address the topic directly without flying off the handle and talk about 10 unrelated topics.
September:04:2008 - 02:52
Saudi in the US you are rather foolish as is John.
To me it does not matter if it is a woman or a man who defies the a nation or tribes treaty, both are committing acts of treason.
John you again fail to realize that the U.S. is not experiencing life as a war zone. Deserters are draft dodgers are only killed in times of extreme crisis. During the Civil War several bloody riots occurred because of drafts, furthermore you better believe that people where executed or shot in the back as they fled from battle. No sane nation would allow for a few individuals to bring about their destruction.
Both of you assume that I think a woman’s place is submissive to a man, however I do not believe that. At the same time I am not silly enough to believe that a woman is entitled to the same rights as a man in every given situation. In today’s technological advanced society a woman can typically produce as much as any man (although manual labor will always be dominated by men), therefore I see no reason as to why men should hold advantages over women. At the same time I recognize that in centuries past women made far less contributions to civilization (well those societies that could be labeled as civilizations anyways), and it would be unfair for them to be given the same rights despite the fact they produced less.
As for your friend John, my achievements are slightly different, I was not coached at an early age to obtain my degree as most of these child “geniuses” are who earn degrees in the same amount of time simply earlier.
In fact I think nothing of it myself, I expect any and everyone to be able to do what I have done, if not more. Educational standards are so lax it isn’t even funny. An individuals whole entire G.E. course work is a joke, the classes are so easy as most universities measure a professors productivity through the number of students they have, so professors often dumb down their G.E. courses to attract as many students as possible.
Solomon, I was setting forth a possible explanation, and although it was a hypothetical argument (based on facts) I do not believe it to be true unless evidence points to it being true.
John the article you linked from Arab News omits a whole section of the article, that is what I was criticizing. Also if you do not think that the reporter was jumping the gun and calling the even an “honor killing” given the existence of alternative accounts and guilty of yellow journalism then your standards are low.
Quiet Frankly I am sick of this term “honor” killings. More women are murdered every year by their lovers in the U.S. then the number of women who are murdered period in Pakistan. Furthermore the media seems to label every killing of a woman as an “honor” killing.
I could care less if people on cross roads arabia agree with me or not. Nobody on this board has any level of influence that would tempt me to court their influence. I did however what to see how an arrogant Western Supremacist and his spineless self hating converts would react to someone trying to instill reason in to this debate.
I had no intention to continually defend my views on collectivism and individualism, I was attempting to point out what I saw as Yellow Journalism on the part of the AP and Arab News (who omitted 1/3 of the article).
Although many worse events have happened (Mukthar Mai for example), everyone and his uncle seems to jump on the band wagon of the evil Muslim Man out to put women in their “place.” It is as if you approach a layman and say cannibalism still happens in Uganda, they will believe it because they have such a low view of Africans, even if it isn’t remotely true.
Oh Noes Saudi in the US (is your homeland to repulsive to you) thinks I am Mad, whatever will I do, I think I will go cut myself (sarcasm, thought I would make that clear as many of you are unable to read things without putting words in another person mouth).
September:04:2008 - 03:05
Again I will lay my points out.
1) I had no intention in necessarily advocating that any kind of peace treaty was involved, I was mentioning this as a possibility as similar events in the past have happened.
2) Arab News omits the last third of the article
The article can be read here
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26469519/
3) The existence of alternative accounts is addressed but none of those accounts are mentioned. Behavior we start throwing around the H word why don’t we see all the facts then judge.
4) For someone reason I have been accused of believing a woman’s place is below a mans, how is continually saying that no one has the right to value themselves above the collective benefit of the group the same as saying a woman has to be submissive to a man
5) The whole reason as to why I went through great depths to elaborate on my view on collectivism and individualism is because from the very being people where misconstruing what I was saying, arguing that I was advocating the deaths of these girls for wanting to choose their own husbands when I was not, so I had to perpetually state my views on collectivism.
6) The people on this board do seem out of touch with reality, they are unable to distinguish between a nation that fights offensive wars thousands of miles away their borders, and one that has to see the face of war day in and day out.
7) Nobody wanted to debate my critique of the article, John still doesn’t realize that Arab News reported only 2/3 of it, and instead decided to attack me based on an hypothetical scenario I proposed. Unlike the mad people on this board I do not believe that is what happened, I was suggesting that alternative explanations may exist. The people on this board who have constantly attacked me do see it fit to label this as an “honor” killing when not all of the facts are even known (I guess it is okay to skip over that whole innocent until proven guilty thing when it involves tribes in far off lands)
LOL at American Bedu, I seriously question the intelligence of whoever let you be a diplomat. You basically condemn the entire population of Baluachistan with your vile tongue, but I guess it is okay to malign Balouchis.
September:04:2008 - 05:06
Tariq,
I normally do not go through people’s quotes and repeat them as evidence. However, you’re a special kind of NUT, I do not see any other way to get this across. I am going to give just do 2 examples, there are many more of these if i wanted to take the time…
Your words:
“Both of you assume that I think a woman’s place is submissive to a man”
Both here meaning John and I. Now go find where I said something like that or even remotely like it. Hint you will never find it, because I never made such statement.
Your words:
“I was suggesting that alternative explanations may exist. The people on this board who have constantly attacked me do see it fit to label this as an “honor” killing when not all of the facts are even known (I guess it is okay to skip over that whole innocent until proven guilty thing when it involves tribes in far off lands)”
My words just in the previous post:
“I also understand that there is sensationalism in journalism. I actually see it in the Arabic press also, but I agree with the concept that stories can be far fetched. This is why I only call for a government investigation, I am not ready to buy the idea of a crime committed here at 100%. However, the story is compelling enough to warrant a full investigation. This is not a disagreement we have so quit harping on it.”
By the way John made a similar statement on the need for an investigation.
You either cannot comprehend written English or are delusional, pick one.
Delusion= A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence (TFD online dictionary).
The problem why no one can reach any understanding with you is you assume we said things we did not say. Or even assume the revers of what we said. I showed you specific examples of this behavior.
September:04:2008 - 05:51
Saudi in the US please read post 89 from John
“We believe that women have the same rights to autonomy as men; that individual rights are at least as important–if not more important–that ’social values’. Most of us are aware that ’social values’ are a social construct, that they are the residue of many years, centuries, perhaps millennia of practice.”
You see John said exactly that, as well as a slew of other people. Also John seems to take the lead in speaking for others, I thought you were included.
If I some how put words in your mouth I apologize it wasn’t my intention, however a number of people have made that accusation and John appears to believe he talks for others them himself.
I was mistaken if I accused you of those two things, it is sometimes hard to get everyones views straight when you have a barrage of accusations coming from half a dozen people, it also doesn’t help when one of them uses terms like “we” when speaking about their own views, attempting to project them as everyone else’s.
September:04:2008 - 07:49
I don’t mind to have John speak for me as I think he’s very intelligent, and speaks what is right.
And, btw, I do nót hate myself; I hold a BA ànd an MA, I speak five languages, built and maintain four websites in different languages, play musical instruments, ride horses, fly soaringplanes, do amazing cooking, teach, make beautiful art, and am alltogether totally gorgious.
and modest.
go figure.
And I dó think Tariq thinks a woman’s place is submissive to a man: as you Tariq said: ”Both of you assume that I think a woman’s place is submissive to a man, however I do not believe that. At the same time I am not silly enough to believe that a woman is entitled to the same rights as a man in every given situation. In today’s technological advanced society a woman can typically produce as much as any man (although manual labor will always be dominated by men), therefore I see no reason as to why men should hold advantages over women.”
I’ll gloss over the illogic composition of this last sentence; You are wrong in several points. Statistically more than 80% of the hard manual labour on the planet Earth is done by women. As men are stronger I presume that is because men are lazy bastards.
That is not really something which should entitle men to hold advantages.
And I’m sorry but I do not think superior strenght is as valuable as superior intellect. Look where the world is with that sex who holds superior strength ruling it.
It’s a mess. It’s full of hypocrisy, evil, abuse, torture and suffering.
According to you even an tribal dispute apparently can’t be decided in a civilised manner, but has to involve the forcing of women into unwanted marriages. You are outside this tribal melée, but you don’t seem to be able to concieve of an intelligent solution either. I don’t think people with such limited intellectual prowess, and such total absence of empathy and respect for the feelings and happiness of others, should have any say over the lives of other people.
If, with this quote: ”I am not silly enough to believe that a woman is entitled to the same rights as a man in every given situation”
You meant: *as women have better connected brains, and can multi-task, and have better liguistic skills, and are more empathic, women should be given more privileges and hold responsible jobs*, I am sorry I mis-understood you, and do wholly agree with you.
September:04:2008 - 08:43
“I think I will go cut myself” even as a joke that has deep meaning. You have anxiety about what horrible fate is going to happen to the tribe and so far you have proven that it is nothing more than irrational fears.
I suggest and in all honestly think too much authoritative influence from the tribe has induced irrational fears in you. Peal back the layers and slowly but surely you will see how you have been under “their” control and desire at the expense of your own happiness. Please do not cut yourself. You do not have to sacrifice yourself for anybody unless you want to.
I give you 6-12 months to come around to our thinking. You are in a state of transition. You may not recognize it now. That is fine. You wouldn’t be here so hard trying to get through to us… because the higher moral authority always wins. Even if you talk to us till your blue in the face the underlying principle is that murdering these women in the manner they were is grotesque regardless of the motivation.
You have been a victim and since you have exposure to both sides you are confused and trying to get the other side to see and condone the reasoning of the other side. The only thing is that WE ARE NOT under the control and manipulation of your tribal leaders.
September:04:2008 - 09:55
I was browsing the blogosphere and found this interesting link pertaining to an honor killing in Palestine: http://jonathanturley.org/2008/09/03/palestinian-father-buries-divorced-daughter-alive-in-honor-killing/ which also then ties the article in to the honor killings which take place in Pakistan.
We are falling on deaf eyes trying to engage in a comprehensible dialogue with Tariq so probably best for everyone to simply ignore him unless you just want to pull his chain… he can’t resist responding to what anyone may say about him. Individuals with his mindset are usually beyond being able to see alternative views and will continue to attempt and force their views and usually with a lot of verbose quotes.
John – you sure picked a good article to post for discussion!
September:04:2008 - 10:24
Good afternoon to all,
the following link describes the reaction of many Pakistani women to the event as well as nice comments like this one : “If Islam allows adult men and women to get married if they like each other, who are these tribal heads to stop young couples from getting married legally?”.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=200894\story_4-9-2008_pg12_3
That may open the debate again but it’s worth it.
September:04:2008 - 15:35
Wow Aafke you have appointed John to be your brain. LOL who cares about your achievements, seriously what a bunch of children all of you are.
Aafke you are talking out of your ass. Please explain to me how women make up 80% of the manual labor force when in most countries they make up less then 1/3 of the labor force.
Check this link from the world bank and stop speaking like an idiot.
http://devdata.worldbank.org/genderstats/genderRpt.asp?rpt=profile&cty=WLD,World&hm=home
Sparky you are so amazingly stupid. You psychoanalyze someone’s sarcastic comment then you think you can properly analyze there life. LOL, if anything I will be more radical, I used to think similar to the sheep on this board but then I started to use my brain. As Aafke has illustrated most people on this board are mindless halfwits who are incapable of thinking for themselves.
Carol and Michael are again ranting about Honor killings, now in Palestine of all places. Apparently their reading comprehension skills suck are they are simply delusional.
LOL well Carol please explain to me what purpose your comment had other then to provoke me. And does anyone else here take John as their god and follow his every whim, anyone who would let someone else speak for them in all circumstances (as Aafke made clear he would) is one pathetic excuse for a human being.
In 2004 women made up 40% of the labor force in the world (FAR LESS in developing countries, as developing countries have fewer people working as a proportion of the population and thus developed countries and China have a disportionately higher percentage of the labor force versus their actual percentage of the global population).
So hmmm the fact that no Islamic Society, other then perhaps Indonesia, has more then 1/3 of the labor force as women and in most societies women make up at most 1/4 of the labor, and given that over 40% of the worlds labor force is in agriculture you are clearly mistaken.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html#Econ
Simply put if 27% of the Pakistani Labor Force is made up women, or 13.2 million people, and 42% of Pakistani Laborers work in Agriculture or 20 million people, then how can women make up 80% of the agricultural labor force, when given that if all women did was work in Agriculture they would make up only 65% of the labor force, but wait manual labor is more then agriculture isn’t.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html
http://devdata.worldbank.org/genderstats/genderRpt.asp?rpt=profile&cty=PAK,Pakistan&hm=home
Perhaps I should have been more clear, agricultural labor is hardly intensive (pregnant women have even been know to work in the fields). Women on average lack the muscles and endurance that men have, or perhaps you are one of those men who scrawny tooth pick arms.
Apparently you choose to believe what you want to, how women can make up 80% of manual laborers given that in the developing world they make up between 1/4 and 1/3 of the labor force, and manual labor dominates people’s lives their. I guess in Afghanistan all the Blacksmiths are women and all the elementary school teachers are men? You are delusional indeed.
September:04:2008 - 18:12
Tariq: I’m afraid your self-declared brilliance has left you on the reefs of ignorance… once again. This time, the glaring void is in your not understanding what ‘Labor Force’ means.
Published labor figures include ONLY those who are paid for their work. In most of the non-industrial world, women are in fact responsible for agriculture. But they are not paid for it and thus they are invisible to the statistics you quote. While I might not accept 80% as the right number, it is certainly over 60%.
China, Thailand, India, Egypt… check out the fields and see who’s doing the work. While you’ll find men walking behind the plow, you’ll also find women pulling the plow.
Perhaps, maybe just perhaps, commenters here agree with some of what I write–certainly not all!–because I reason rationally. I’m not any sort of god, nor would I want to be. Having godly powers would mean I’d have to abstain from using some of them, like avoiding the temptation to hurl thunderbolts at gnats.
September:04:2008 - 19:50
Tariq, if I came across you in this life (in reality) and you talked like that you might find yourself castrated pretty fast. Testicles are not off limits…and they do bleed I assure you. Tested tried and true!
Talk to your mom, sisters and other women like that but not me.
Sorry for those comments John. I don’t mean to disrespect this blog.
September:04:2008 - 19:59
Let me add…about what I used to think…I used to think the US was wrong for invading countries like yours…but after reasoning with you, I honestly think “Not such a bad idea”
People like you are SICK SICK SICK…and yes I will psychoanalyze
September:04:2008 - 20:56
John/Sparky,
Just keep this quote in mind when you talk to Tariq:
“Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education.” -Bertrand Russell
September:04:2008 - 21:38
That is a good one Saudi in the US. I am so done talking to this fool ! ! !
September:04:2008 - 23:46
ROFL
You guys are a riot a minute, Sparky threatens my life (that isn’t psychotic) for some trivial reason. Then she advocates invading countries like mine, I was born and bred in the USA little girl, I have ancestors here going back nearly 400 hundred years. My my you all of you are rather hopeless.
John please don’t talk out of your ass on subjects you clearly no nothing about.
Chad, population 10 million, labor force 3.747 million, 80% in agriculture (subsistence farming, herding, and fishing) .
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cd.html
Neighboring Niger, population 10 million, 70,000 salaried workers as of 1995, however 40% of the labor force is involved in agriculture.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ng.html
Funny, Niger is actually more prosperous then Chad yet it only has 60,000 salaried workers, do you honestly believe that Chad has 3.75 million salaried workers?
Unless you have some kind of proof to back up what you say please stop talking out of your ass.
Countries like Niger and Chad (which have higher then expected labor force participation rates as a proportion of the population than most Muslim nations) is predominately made up of minors (over half the population is under the age of 17 in both nations.
Poverty in the third world is driven by the large number of dependents and few working individuals.
Anyways back to the point at hand, John Lord of the Nitwits and psychopaths on Cross Roads Arabia has talked out of his ass yet again and made a fool of himself.
So lets see, Sparky is a psychopath making idle threats over the internet (extremely mature to do), Aafke and John both speak out of there rear ends, and Saudi in the US doesn’t appear to have any qualms with having John speak for him (Aafke has already given up his ability to think for himself and delegated all of his thinking to John, Lord of the Nitwits on Cross Roads Arabia).
I found an interesting study on Honor Killings done in Turkey.
http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=3481
Perhaps the John and his underlings may wish to read it as it lays to rest some of the most vile slanders proponents of the existence of “honor killings” make, that these individuals commit their actions based on mere suspiscion. Back in the 1970′s they use to say Vietnamese people didn’t feel sad when their family members are killed, today they say that Muslims throw away their familial bonds based on flimsy hearsay.
September:05:2008 - 00:23
“Saudi in the US doesn’t appear to have any qualms with having John speak for him”
Now again where did I say that. The fact is and I repeated that many times, I just chose not to debate you. The reason is that you make people positions for them then attack those positions. I even showed you with specific examples. There is no debate with a mad man.
Dude I know you have an ego bigger than Pacific ocean, but you are literally a light weight when it comes to analysis or debate. All you have done so far is misinterpret information and shoot you mouth like a fool.
I do have a lot in common with John, but we also have many areas where we disagree. It happens we agree on this one, because any moral person will have the same position John and I do. It just happens that you stand alone in an immoral position.
September:05:2008 - 03:04
Tariq Mahmood writes:
“Aafke you are talking out of your ass”
“John please don’t talk out of your ass on subjects you clearly no nothing about.”
Now what does this tell us all of this Tariq? I hate to say this, but a person that has homosexual tendencies (more like a homosexual still not out of the closet). All he can think of is ass this and ass that.
Where I really got me laughing is when Tariq writes:
“I was born and bred in the USA little girl, I have ancestors here going back nearly 400 hundred years.”
Pretty soon we will be told that his great ancestor was Columbus from one side and King Akbar, of India, on the other.
Tariq, you are just one of the many confused American Born Confused Desis (for those that do not know this terminology, “desi is used colloquially to mean South Asian immigrants and their descendants”) that have real identity issues. You belong no where and never can accept what you are. This is why many of you ABCD’s become the “defenders” of Islam and Pakistan or whatever other hot issues around the world.
I can go on saying some more words but it is not worth my time. I do thank you for the entertainment provided. You a classic fool that does not know when to stop.
September:05:2008 - 03:23
LOL S H,
I think he is a descendant of Crazy Horse. May be a little confused thinking all Indians came from the subcontinent…
September:05:2008 - 04:26
Good morning to all (but one),
I wanted to suggest our using one language (other than English)that TM would not master; I did not have to spend too much time on it as he clearly cannot speak the language that all the other readers of this blog have always been using, i.e. respect for others, humility.
TM’s case is desperate but I fear we cannot do anything for him. I admire some of our readers for having tried…
September:05:2008 - 05:05
Michael, I was the first one to be called mad, I was even threatened by a little girl. Clearly you like to ignore the comments from your fellow goombas.
Anyways SH you expose your own stupidity, as you have made such a baseless accusation. But I guess that is what everyone on this board likes to do, make baseless accusations without supporting evidence.
Again no one has debated the counter points I made. Apparently the people on this blog aren’t capable of backing up their words with actual sources.
I am half white and half punjabi, I was merely illustrating that my homeland is America more then anything else. Ironically everything I say is twisted by the snakes on this board.
Well Saudi in the US I openly mocked you and everyone else on this board because John claims to speak for you and Aafke has openly declared John to be Fuher, no one has yet denied John the right to speak for them which he seems to think he is.
Again you guys are hopeless, making wild accusations, threatening bodily harm, and being unable to comment on something without twisting the facts. Did I forget to mention that all of the Easterners on this board are seemingly unfazed that Sparky declared her support for the invasion of nations because of my views? Indeed all of you are pathetic human beings.
Seeing you guys make ridicule yourselves has gotten boring. Your stupidity is on display for the whole world to see, I am glad that a few of you are decent enough to use your actual names as your handles instead of using a stupid alias.
Unlike the the pitiful human beings who have shown such hostility toward me, I wish you all a good evening, find something better to do than to make fools of yourselves on a blog. Not one of you have debated my counter arguments and it is sad.
September:05:2008 - 05:43
Tariq,
I don’t know to whom you’re talking, my name is Michel not Michael; if you cannot read go back to school; as for me that will be the last time I write anything to you;
I hope one day you’ll find the right ????, for the moment you’re on the wrong path.
September:05:2008 - 05:47
In my last message ???? appeared instead of ‘Tariq’ which I had typed in Arabic, if you know what that means.
September:05:2008 - 06:04
Tariq Mahmood,
Now you know how it feels to be attacked. For this is what you have been doing to the good folks on this site. I am new here, courtesy to you visiting American Bedu’s blog, and I have not found this group to be biased. John and others are quite open for discussions. You have been attacking everyone that differs with your views. So please think and reflect first, before pointing fingers.
I do realize that you are a young man, confused and not sure of how to engage others. You being a Muslim, I am assuming this, you should show the best character that our faith teaches us. Have you forgotten this is Ramadan?
My sincere advice to you is this, be kind to others and you will find others to give the same back to you. No matter if we may not agree with each other, the least we can be is civil.
Do check back on this site again. Soon as I can find time to finish a short article I am writing on Ruqya (incantations) in reference to black magic, evil eye, and possession. I write still the old way by the means of the pen and with Ramadan and work schedule, still not finished just yet.
Please be kind to others and trust me, these folks will be kind to you.
Regards
September:05:2008 - 08:45
Quick NOTE: You can live without your testicles! That is not a threat against your life. All that I am saying is that, “If you were to speak that way to me in real life, you would pay a hefty price because I don’t take people’s BULL!”
Someone who advocates the killings in this article deserves to have their testicles ripped from them. Calling me crazy makes me happy. It gives me more power to rip them to shreds LOL
September:05:2008 - 09:46
May I add OH OH BOooohoo Poor Tariq Mahmood is scared a little girl named Sparky is going to come rip his testicles off.
It is reassuring to know that most likely a jury of my peers would find my “Not Guilty for reasons of INSANITY”.
September:05:2008 - 10:16
Sparky,
Too funny. You are not going to turn Dayak and eat his heart, are you?
Never mind, I think I know the answer
September:05:2008 - 10:27
Well you know Saudi in the US in our TRIBE it is not uncommon to…
LOL just kidding
September:05:2008 - 15:23
I think some of your posse must be embarrassed by the comments Sparky, Michel and Saudi in the US have made.
Sparky I mocked your foolishness of making idle threats over the internet, however fools like SH and Michel decided to selectively screen out the insults and threats made against me. As for Michel, if that is the best you can come up with, I pity you. People mispronounce my name all the time, is misspelling someone’s name really grounds to attack them?
I think anyone who stumbles on this page will have a few good laughs. None of you have debated facts that I brought up as a counter argument to BS statements.
Anyways SH if you believe in that nonsense (the Evil Eye, Black Magic, and the works) then you are certifiable.
And SH it appears that Sparky is making idle threats against me because I have insulted her honor, clearly I offended her some how (without doing anything nonetheless). I may be mistaken but I think when I stated that men are inherently stronger then women she went off the deep end.
I have been called much worse and encountered physical violence for expressing my views before. The individuals on this board are beyond help, I am sure if your peers saw your rantings they would be shocked and ashamed.
September:05:2008 - 15:27
SH I honestly believe that men like you, American Bedu, and Saudi in the US are Munafaquin. None of you have raised issue with Sparky clearly supporting the invasion and slaughter of countries that your brothers and sisters inhabit because of views i expressed.
Allah has put veil’s over your hearts.
September:05:2008 - 15:36
Also I would like to point out that John was the first one to lodge insults. His expression of revulsion to the execution of adulterers is an attack on the legal system of 1.5 billion people.
Although I myself find little scriptural basis for the sanctioning of such a punishment, I am revolted by simple minded Westerners seek to impose their set of values that are not supported by anything other then their opinions.
Islam is a religion that seeks to establish a world where individuals are continually striving to improve themselves, better the lives of others, and praise the Almighty. Much of the legal framework is built on deterrence. For someone to simply dismiss 1.5 billion people’s legal system without even making a logical argument is beyond simple minded, it is down right bigoted.
September:05:2008 - 16:01
John, (heil, mine führer!),
Aaah, yes, perheaps inflammated by the excitement of this discussion, I excaggereted the percentage a bit. I’m just enjoying myself here, and not taking it very seriously.
Always good to be taken seriously though…
Tariq!: Agricultural work is not labour intensive? Dude: what planet are you from???? Have you ever tried it?
No. Otherwise you could not make such a bizarre statement.
Women labour on the fields not because it is a soft job, but of nessecity, and because women are very strong and tough. Tougher than most men.
Sparky: I agree with you, in interest to the evolution of the human species we should prevent certain genes to be passed on
Saudi in US: Great quote!
SH: oh, you are right! It is Ramadan: peace to everybody. I’ll desist.
Thank you for reminding me to try and become a better person this month.
September:05:2008 - 16:05
Sparky! You are an evil woman! Threatening to invade numerous foreign countries, and scaring poor Tariq by threatening to rip his balls off!
September:05:2008 - 16:11
I’ll really pipe down now.
September:05:2008 - 16:19
Speaking of women laborers, here is an example right from Pakistan. I have seen these women myself who toll all day long in searing heat, filthy conditions but do what they must to take care of their family: http://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/full_article.cfm?articleid=1310
September:05:2008 - 16:26
Tariq,
Yes, I am certifiable and writing to you from a mental asylum (we do get breaks to haunt others like you).
I will leave you with these verses from the Quran and lets see how intelligent of a “man” you are:
“They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon; the blasphemers were not Solomon but the evil ones, teaching men magic and such things as came down at Babylon to the angels Harut, and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (such things) without saying: “We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme.” They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah’s permission. And they learned what harmed them not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew! (102) If they had kept their faith and guarded themselves from evil far better had been the reward from Allah if they but knew!”
Sura Al-Baqara Verses 102-103
So to prove of how ignorant you are Tariq, I share verses from the Quran. You can call me whatever names and question my knowledge, lets see how you go about denying what is stated in the above verses.
You have made a mockery of yourself and continue to vile people with your hatred. By the way, how do you know my gender is even male?
Good day!
September:05:2008 - 18:38
Tariq,
By order of the blog führer we were all instructed to break the record of # of comments on a single post. We are close to that magic 200 number. Please, cooperate and entertain us with a few more of your comedic comments. Otherwise, we will send Sparky, the designated blog bruiser, to deliver some Darwinian justice
By the way, I think you should drop the notion that anyone can take you seriously here after all your tirades. You are simply a joke to most of us….
September:05:2008 - 21:23
Obviously the people on this board have little respect for themselves, so this will be last post and last visit to xrdarabia.
I can’t say that I am not disappointed by the fact no one has countered my argument, I expected as much.
I hope Aafke doesn’t claim to be a Muslim, he is a disgrace if he does.
SH those are times of old, The time of miracles ended with the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh. It is insane to believe in such foolish notions as the “evil eye” or “magic” when no proof that these things are active in our lives exist.
I really don’t understand what American Bedu is getting at with her link. It is to a Christian Ministry site and focuses on the backwardness of the Christian community in Pakistan. One Women’s plight doesn’t reflect the society has a whole.
Yes I believe that picking crops in the field is not as exhausting digging ditches or breaking cement. Pregnant women have worked in the fields, not much strength is needed.
Of course I do not believe a woman should work in the fields period, but that is just me.
I pity you guys, Allah has put a veil over your eyes. Enjoy posting your vile words, they won’t be falling on my ears.
September:05:2008 - 22:55
Tariq Mahmood writes:
“SH those are times of old, The time of miracles ended with the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh. It is insane to believe in such foolish notions as the “evil eye” or “magic” when no proof that these things are active in our lives exist.”
So essentially you have told me that you do not believe in the word (from the verses of the Quran I shared before) of God, that is in the Quran. You select what suits you and negate which does not.
I recall you called few of us munafiqun. Now I do understand. All the guilt within your being has been eating you up, digging a deep hole of the reality of being a hypocrite. This is also the reason why you have been ranting on and on here.
I have nothing further to say to you. Enjoy your ignorance and delusions.
September:06:2008 - 04:44
Here is a posting from another blog which is worth reading in regards to women and islam as well as touches on the honor killings in Pakistan:
http://pamirtimes.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/gender-justice-in-islam/
September:06:2008 - 07:56
Very good article. Pity we didn’t have it last week!
September:06:2008 - 08:10
Thanks, John. The comments about women and manual labor made me remember the “brick women” in Pakistan so I did a google to see if I could find anything about them and found the article.
For those not aware those poor women will work 16 hour days inside of the sweltering brick furnaces shaping and casting the bricks. And because it is considered such a lowly and unwanted type of job, it has fallen to the discriminated Christian women to carry it out so they can provide for their families.
September:06:2008 - 08:49
I don’t want to suggest that all men sit around drinking tea and playing tric-trac all day. That’s not usually the case. But women in developing countries do back-breaking manual labor, from working the rice fields to hauling cargo at ports. Very few working class women sit around watching soap operas and eating bon bons. And of course, 100% of the child-bearing/child care falls on them as well and in addition to the labor. Labor-Squared, I guess.
September:06:2008 - 23:46
First off Sparky feels a little bad about playing a part in running off Tariq. Sheep testicles are a delicacy ummmm.
However Sparky feels like he is retarded in many ways (That is my own personal opinion). I asked myself three questions about him/ you (if you are out there) 1. “IS he for real?” 2. “Should I cry for him” 3. “Should I laugh at him”
He cannot get the point. I do not find it hard to believe that he has been physically attacked for defending his beliefs. “No Tariq…really you have been attacked…!”
However, he has succeeded in pulling us away from the heart of the issue. Tariq if you are out there listening…For the record, I do not give a rat’s ass who is stronger a man or a woman.
The issue is that anyone who advocates the killings in this article (call them what you may) is a barbaric person and a weakling because they can get their power from oppressing the weak (IN your opinion the woman). FULL STOP!
I can sit and talk about every issue under the sun with you…some I may agree with others I won’t (most I WON’T)
And here goes…( I am opening another can of worms ) Concerning the punishment for adultery (assuming one could reason with someone like you who refuses and dismisses evidence at his own discretion and personal preference) is only enforceable if 4 witnesses actually see the penis inside the vagina…otherwise it is not enforceable. SO Allah is merciful because by the time the door swings open and 4 people are looking at you butt naked CAUGHT it is gonna be soft for sure. Sorry to put it in such terms like that. The way the punishment for adultery is being carried out in “Islamic countries” is 100 % WRONG! I have heard of unmarried girls being murdered for fornificating which is contrary to Shariah law. If they are caught in the same manner, which I described above the punishment is lashes. If you do not believe me, do the research yourself. Thus, in a sense Allah’s prescribing of death to adulterers is in many ways symbolic. Allah is saying how horrible it is that the act itself is worthy of death. I am not saying it is not enforceable. What I am saying is that it is only in the case where the penis is seen by four witnesses actually INSIDE the vagina. I wonder how many cases like that exist??? At the same time I wonder how many adulterers have been killed. Plus the person is given a chance to invoke the curse of God on them by denying it in which case they are off the hook.
Now back to the original point. I asked you, “IS it permissible for a woman to be forced to marry someone she doesn’t want to from an Islamic point of view?” YOu refused and dodged that question. Any person with half a brain will see how you selectively and cunningly use personal attacks and go way off the topic to prove your point. I also asked, “What ILL FATE awaited the tribe for these girls outright disobedience?” You refuse to answer that.
You my friend have lost the debate…(at least in my opinion).
LAST COMMENT: As far as my comments about invading foreign countries…In the beginning you said something along the lines of I couldn’t get a rise out of you but Hmmm seems like the little girl did.
September:07:2008 - 02:26
Sparky, Why couldn’t McCain have chosen you as his running mate instead of “Sarah Barracuda?” (smile)
September:07:2008 - 10:28
Sometimes a woman is good asset to have…The tigress in us…We claw at our opponents…rrrrrrrr
September:07:2008 - 13:20
Enjoyed that Sparky! And spot on!
The actions in this article are só unislamic that the mind boggles why everybody involved hasn’t been executed on the spot!
I love being regarded as a weak-armed disgraced muslim male.
Blog-führer, are we really allowed to take this to 200 count?
September:08:2008 - 05:55
Here are the latest news on the investigation carried out in Pakistan after the murder of the 5 girls;
as is often the case there those (apparently)responsible are so powerful that one can hardly believe they will ever be arrested.
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=134446
September:08:2008 - 06:04
I couldn’t help noticing this sentence: *The shocking aspect of this honour killing is that the girls were not killed by their father or brothers but some distant relative did it in the name of tribal customs and honour.*
So it’s not so bad if it’s the father who muders his daughter? That is só sick!
*Sadiq Umrani was not pressing for any investigations into this crime to get the name of his brother cleared, who is already facing a case of killing a girl and her would-be husband on their way to court in a taxi. Even the taxi driver was murdered for his crime to take those girls to the court.*
It seems that a number of people do support a girls right to choose her own future, while the men in power do not, and need to use the most appaling violence to get their opinion through. So much for ”tribal customs”
September:08:2008 - 14:32
Translation: distant relative possibly settled some family feud by finding an excuse to kill the two girls.
Pardon my cynicism, distantly family members find it very convenient to kill women and children for family honor when its really their financial interests are at stake.
In India, “witches” are usually elderly women who own land that their accusers wish to grab. In the past, widows were polished off as unlucky omens because their in-laws wanted to grab their dowries.
I really wonder what the story is here. Family honor, my foot. This was muscle flexing of the worst kind and probably had more to do with jockeying for power, money and land than the girls’ desire to marry the men of their choice.
September:08:2008 - 17:06
Olivetheoil, Please don’t suppose I ever took the ”Honour” crap serious!
September:08:2008 - 23:30
aah excuse me last time i checked this was a site specifically on saudi arabia and generally on arabs—-i know for sure pakistan is not arabic and isnt part of da stone aged arabian peninsula,oops, beninsula
September:09:2008 - 00:04
I wonder if all the tribal leaders would do the ultimate altruistic deed by sacrificing themselves for the peace of their people by agreeing or (maybe be taken by gunpoint) to be all buried alive for the GOOD and HONOR of their tribes. It is in their hands to end all the hate and disputes once and for all by ending their miserable excuse of a life and as a leader so those after them can live in peace. I WONDER!
September:09:2008 - 08:40
zani: While Saudi Arabia is the principal focus of this blog, it also addresses things like modernization within Islam. One of the key factors to that is to distinguish ‘authentic Islam’ from ‘cultural Islam’. ‘Honor killings’ in Islamic countries are something that blacken the face of Islam around the world. There is no authority for them within most interpretations of Islam, but instead appear to be cultural practices that take cover under the name of Islam.
If you read my post, moreover, you’ll note that I wrote about it because it was reported in the Saudi media. Saudi media is absolutely within the ambit of this blog.
September:09:2008 - 09:12
Zani, you always show your ugly hatred and prejudices. At least this time it was a clear case. Not hidden behind your typical sex rants. You exposed your agenda clearly this time.
September:09:2008 - 11:52
I agree with you Saudi in the US…I thought the same thing you did!
September:09:2008 - 19:41
John;OK, i didnt know that u cover muslim issues as well—i thought it was related to arabs in general and specifically saudi—and many ppl believe it dont know that not all arabs r muslims and vice versa and while pakland is muslim buts its not arab.
saud in US: and i wont even begin 2 clarify myself 2 u becuz i know its a waste of time and effort—u will alwayz take things personally and cant bear criticism of any sort though i didnt even criticize anything, just stated that pakistan isnt an arab country—and what agenda??? its just ur paranoid imagination.
September:09:2008 - 20:09
I am chewing on pumkin seeds thinking about the 911 thread…will go for a walk and maybe have something to say…maybe not
September:09:2008 - 22:13
There is no authority for them within most interpretations of Islam, but instead appear to be cultural practices that take cover under the name of Islam.
I note that the Western experience is the opposite: as Christianity spread, such incidences were opposed first by clerical, then by cultural and secular authority. The argument that “it’s culture, not Islam” would carry more weight if the same practices existed among Christians and Jews in Muslim-majority countries. If so practiced, I haven’t heard of it.
September:09:2008 - 23:05
I don’t know about Jews, but I do know that ‘honor killings’ have been committed by Christians. When I was in university, I met a Lebanese Maronite who had killed his sister, on his father’s orders, for the way she’d dishonored the family. I’ve seen reports of similar killings in Lebanon, Palestine, and Jordan.
Then you get into the whole Catholic/Mediterranean thing in Sicily, Spain, Malta… machismo, honor, and orgullo. Maybe not in the most recent days, but definitely not that far back…
September:10:2008 - 04:28
Zani,
“—u will alwayz take things personally and cant bear criticism of any sort though i didnt even criticize anything, just stated that pakistan isnt an arab country—and what agenda??? its just ur paranoid imagination.”
That does not match what you stated:
“—-i know for sure pakistan is not arabic and isnt part of da stone aged arabian peninsula,oops, beninsula”
You have a hateful attitude calling countries stone aged, not that Pakistan is not Arabic. I would have been fine if you simply stated that. It is your prejudice that I have a problem with. There was no reason for you to even start a rant other than you are a JERK. And I won’t let you get away with calling my country that.
So quit being delusional about that I cannot take criticism. Many here criticize Saudi and I do not have a problem with it. The difference is they do not make statement like yours.
By the way, of all the times you called Arabs all kinds of names. I never resorted to saying 1 bad thing about your country or your heritage. I have a problem with you not your people, because you are a hateful racist.
September:10:2008 - 17:46
a Lebanese Maronite who had killed his sister, on his father’s orders, for the way she’d dishonored the family. I’ve seen reports of similar killings in Lebanon, Palestine, and Jordan…Then you get into the whole Catholic/Mediterranean thing in Sicily, Spain, Malta…
All places have or had weak secular governments coupled with strong religious influences and tribal/clan authority, is that not so?
September:10:2008 - 19:33
Calling me a JERK or hateful racist is 2 much of a stretch—im so sick of explaining myself 2 u that is has becum redundant trying 2 clarify anything 2 u—u said this time and many times b4 that i called arabs names but u never ever bring proof—i had and still have saudi friendz; if i was a racist i wouldnt have any arab or saudi friendz—u know hell well that i never ever cursed or used insulting words against any person’s culture or creed be it arab or not—and yet u foolishly call me a hateful racist—grow up man, just becuz i criticize some aspects of arabian or saudi life doesnt make me anti-saudi and u r smart enough 2 know that so stop acting naive and childish. i know there r idiots and assholes in every culture,creed and religion as well as good ppl so one needs 2 b open minded about things—i know many saudi assholes who justifiably sometimes but many times not say “baakistani or benjaabi miskeen”—-but i have some saudi friendz who r much more respectful then that—that doesnt mean we agree over everything; but our friendship is still in tact—and whats so hateful about calling da arabian peninsula stone aged? second point, saudi is only one of da countries which make up da arabian peninsula or beeninsoolah— so almost all da countries there, mostly saudi is in da stone ages and i personally dont consider that insulting becuz many saudis themselves r crying left and rite about how many wrongs r being justified in da name of islam such as child marraiges, forced divorces, sexual and physical abuse–and yeh i know such things take place everywhere but u cant deny than specifically in da arab world, particularly saudi where owning dogs as pets is haraam, male female companionship is haraam, music is haraam, prayers r forced etc—many saudis themselves say this and unlike u, wouldnt mind my saying that saudi is in da stone ages.
again, u unjustifiably called me a hateful racist but if u have guts enough just show me one time where i called arabs names and stuff (and that whorehouse thing was not intended for all saudis and i meant it in another way but even then i apologized if it hurt)but just show me where i abused ur race—i know u dont have anything like that against me otherwise john himself would had told me that i am a prejudiced bigot and am not welcum anymore in da board.
September:10:2008 - 19:59
Hi Zani can I chime in one moment. Everybody knows my posts have spelling errors or typos becuase I write fast. However can you please say “the” instead of “da”. I think that is part of what may be bothering Saudi in the US. I mean I judge not man by the spelling of his words but by the content of his character etc. blah blah.
Also you are coming off as a stud muffin…are you one not taht it matters but your pride in being a stud muffin might rub people the wrong way while you are condeming or criticizing muffin activities?
I find your stories interesting and quite believable.
September:10:2008 - 20:48
“u know hell well that i never ever cursed or used insulting words against any person’s culture or creed be it arab or not—and yet u foolishly call me a hateful racist—grow up man, just becuz i criticize some aspects of arabian or saudi life doesnt make me anti-saudi”
I will bring back 2 exact statements you said:
- “know for sure pakistan is not arabic and isnt part of da stone aged arabian peninsula,oops, beninsula”….. Since you are so blind to see why others take offense to it, this is a statement meant to degrade other countries.
- “Sparky, im telling u, i lived in that kingdom and it iz da biggest whorehouse and land of hypocrisy which u can ever imagine so retrospectively”….. This is just pure shameful name calling.
If that is not racism, I do not know what is? For some reason you cannot use good judgment and understand that what you say is insulting to other cultures. I guess you need a lesson on tolerance and treating others kindly. You may not mean it, but believe me you come across like a racist.
You also said this about me:
“saudis themselves r crying left and rite about how many wrongs r being justified in da name of islam such as child marraiges, forced divorces, sexual and physical abuse–and yeh i know such things take place everywhere but u cant deny than specifically in da arab world, particularly saudi where owning dogs as pets is haraam, male female companionship is haraam, music is haraam, prayers r forced etc—many saudis themselves say this and unlike u”
Do me a favor and search my name on the internet (under Americanbedu and Crossroads Arabia blogs) and you will find many instances, where I criticized Saudi on exactly those issues. Your statement about me is absolutely false and no matter how many times you repeat it, it won’t become true. Do your homework.
I truly do not like these exchanges, but I think you cannot distinguish constructive criticism from insulting others. So I am stuck trying to point these issues to you. I know you can do better and I will acknowledge it when you do.
September:10:2008 - 23:07
just look whose telling who—so in other words ur going 2 tell me when my criticism is OK and when its not based on ur liking or not liking of it— grow up man, thats not criticism, thats sucking up 2 someones balls and sorry 2 say it, not insulting u, ur culture or ur country, but many saudis r used 2—no criticism, just flattery—i guess ur living in US doesnt change ur gene does it—o plz now, dont call me racist!
BTW, i dont think u THOROUGHLY read my last post above. for the thousandth and one time, if u read my post, calling a country which is practising wrong customs even by islam’s standard stone aged is not racist—i told u about my arab friends and how we agree 2 disagree—but again u dont care and da second one about whorehouse thing, did u even read what i said about it—i aint now going 2 clarify again since u just conveniently ignored it—its u having a problem—what is wrong about calling a country which officially allows child bride marraiges, where male and female interactions is severely limited, where there is no music, no dogs as pets allowed, where there is no freedom of speech, where there is gender apartheid, where a girl can b raped and instead of da wrong party being punished, she is punished and called an adultress, whats wrong with calling it a stone aged country? its not insulting da ppl, its just criticizing such wrong stuff which most ppl, muslims or not, saudis or not find reprehensible. and what was racist about “saudis themselves r crying left and rite—–”—what was racist about that paragraph? its so true, unless u just wana take it personally. however its sure OK 2 call someone u disagree with a JERK or a racist, isnt it?! and u think despite all this, i need a lesson on tolerance and being kind?! ROFL—if being kind means blind obedience and sucking up 2 someone,i aint for that—as i said b4, u can debate all u want and disagree with me and we could still be laughing and having a coffee and donut at da end of da day—but it seems u just want 2 attack me personally—ever since i posted about that incidence of my friend having sex with a nurse, ur just going beserk and attacking me left and rite—sometimes im a jerk, sometimes im a racist, sometimes im ignorant—i never ever put down ALL saudis, or say that saudi is ALL evil and u know that. anyways, man, just never mind it, im getting da feeling now that im talking with someone who has da intellectual mentality of a neanderthal—-becuz if i was name calling and insulting ur entire heritage or culture or country, John who manages this board would b da first one 2 inform me that i was crossing da line between acceptable criticism 2 name calling,insulting, and racist prejudice and u very well know that.
September:11:2008 - 01:31
Zani,
I read both your messages in full. Even though they are disjointed/hard to follow, do not use capital letters and paragraph structure. The fact that I do not agree with you does not mean I did not read it.
I tried writing you a rational statement on why people take exception to your language and tirades. A mature person will take that and learn from it. But like always you disappoint by writing a long message that is defensive and just reemphasize the perception people have of you.
You will never learn if you do not listen to rational arguments. My opinion of you still remains the same. Have a good day.
September:11:2008 - 16:25
Zani, I don’t read your messages in full because you are such an atrocious writer. Please write normal english if you plan on writing more tham two or three sentences, and if you wish to have people read what your write.
September:11:2008 - 19:13
saud in us: actually that last sentence is what u really need—ie, “u will never learn if u do not listen 2 rational arguments”
frankly speaking, with da most due respect, i dont care what u or anybody thinks about me, becuz if u cant accept me as an ordinary person who is entitled 2 his or her opinions, then man, its ur loss, not mine. have a good life.
aafke: im an atrocious writer? what do u mean by that—plz explain. and i do write normal english— its not greek for gods sake—or do mean that like when i write saudi i should write saaa—ooooo-dddd?! or bbbb—nin–soooo–lah instead of peninsula—other than that, i dont know what else ur talking about man.
sparky: thanks for da humour buddy—i aint boasting about anything but ppl here unfortunately either have closed minds or r just taking it da wrong way. anyways, glad i have found someone who at least understands me, though we may or may not agree on certain issues:)