The question of the right of a Muslim to convert to any other religion has moved from the theoretical to the practical in Saudi Arabia. This article from the UAE’s Gulf News reports that a Saudi father (coincidentally a member of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice) killed his daughter for converting to Christianity.
The issue is sure to cause a flare of negative publicity—as it should—from more tolerant societies. According to the piece, it’s already caused a commotion among Saudis, though I’ve yet to find a report on it in the Saudi media.
This story is going to result in a major debate within Saudi Arabia. I hope the Saudi media has the stomach to deal with it.
Saudi man kills daughter for converting to Christianity
Mariam Al HakeemRiyadh: A Saudi man working with the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice recently killed his daughter for converting to Christianity.
According to sources close to the victim, the religious police member had cut the tongue of the girl and burned her to death following a heated debate on religion.
The death of the girl sent shockwaves and websites where the victim used to write with various nick names have allocated special space to mourn her, while some others closed temporarily in protest.
According to the Saudi Al Ukhdoud news website, the victim wrote an article on the blog of which she was a member under the nickname “Rania” a few days before her murder.
She wrote that her life became an ordeal after her family members grew suspicious about her after a religious discussion with them.
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August:13:2008 - 10:53
The father is nothing more than an animal. He is a wild boar…
I am sure he had everything to do with her supposed conversion to Christianity.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I am interested to see if and how King Abdullah will respond to this incident, particularly after happening right on the tails of the World Dialogue.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I think this story is the same as one that was covered on blogs last week. Teh version I saw was a little different and indicated the brother killed her. Also, that no charges were filed in the case, the death was ruled accidental. She must have stuck her tongue in a 220 electrical outlet to lose the tongue and burn.
I think the story of the girl is accurate as there is a voice recording of an hr long interview with her on the web. The girl in the interview spoke about her conversion with a very hard to replicate Hijazi accent (Egyptian Copts groups will not be able to do it without a Saudi) and sounded well educated. It is a very sad story.
I think King Abdullah as an opportunity here to show that his initiative for religious tolerance is real. If the story is true, he needs to step in with all his authority to bring justice. If he doesn’t, he will lose a lot in international opinion. I know it is a tough spot for the king, but he made an international commitment and needs to step to the plate and hit one now. I just cannot see how he can avoid deal with the international publicity this will bring otherwise.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Carol, Seems we were thinking the same thing at the same time. I saw your comment after I typed mine.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
[...] UPDATE: More on the story in the comment boxes of a site called Crossroads Arabia: [...]
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I’ve seen no follow up to this story. The two news sources that carried the initial story had the exact same report. We’ll be left to speculate if nothing more comes out.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I’ve seen the story picked up on a particular set of websites that focus on the lack of religious freedom in Muslim countries. These mostly point out instances (or alleged instances) of Christians being ‘persecuted’ or ‘martyred’.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Is this killing a prosecutable offense in S.A? And does anyone have links to the victim’s blog posts?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
1. Good question
2. No, I can’t even find the name of her blog. Perhaps someone in the Kingdom can provide it?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I do not think she wrote a blog, but she participated in bulletin boards. I did a search and came up with this Arabic Christian site http://www.ch-arab.com/vb/index.php . She seems to have participated there among others. They have an entire section dedicated to her and a few banners that are being used on internet sites. The comments on the board indicate that her brother was the killer and he is a commission member. It is a real sad story. There are quotes of her last message where she said she was scared of her brother since he was in her computer and discovered her.
It is hard to know the truth here. There is no official information on this story.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
John,
Has anyone ever really met a Saudi who is really a christian. I mean like born a muslim and converted. I was told there is no such thing.
I have trouble believing this story. I was back in Saudi in the 90’s and no one I knew, including Saudi’s, knew of any such thing.
But I have heard that it is a crime, “apostasy” and is punishable by death according to sharia law.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I’ve not met a Christian Saudi in Saudi Arabia. I have met some outside of Saudi Arabia. I think it entirely possible that Christian Saudis do exist as this particular case indicates. I do not think there is any secret community of Saudi Christians hidden in some valley or mountain top in the Kingdom, so they would all have to be converts.
Whether or not apostasy is a capital crime in Saudi Arabia is very much the issue now being discussed. It is a capital crime in several Muslim states, but has not come up in modern times in Saudi Arabia. I’m sure that many Saudis would agree that it should be a capital crime. What we don’t know is just what the government will decide.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
John the site is loading pages fast again. What ever changes you made worked
Regarding killing apostates under Islam, there is a debate about that and no clear answer. It ranges from the extreme where every Muslim has the right to execute and apostate to a small set of liberal scholars that interpret these laws as situational like in the case of war (i.e. similar to executing a person for treason). I think the one that is used in Saudi is the ruling that the Khalifa sets the penalty. In Saudi’s case that means the king has the ultimate decision, which may explain why you do not see execution cases for this.
Regarding whether there are Saudi’s that are Christians. I think there is a very small number. The fact is they have to hide such conversions, since the consequences can be real severe, which includes total rejection by society/family, jail and even death on the hands of a vigilante relative or otherwise. I also, think Saudi’s converting to other religions has less of a probability than other Muslims. This is due to the comprehensive Islamic education in school and having less access to conversion materials and missionaries.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I have never met a Christian Saudi, and I have known Saudis. It is my general experience that Muslims, Arab or otherwise, tend not to convert to another religion. If they become disenfranchised with Islam, they tend to leave religious observance completly rather than convert to another religion.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I have met a Saudi Christian (young woman)undergoing an exorcism and being beaten with a sheik’s stick. They said she was possessed with a Christian Jinn because she had started reading Christian materials.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I just had an thought. Maybe the brother thought he was burning the Jinn inside the girl. Just speculating! The reason is that Saudis would never admit that a person on an intellectual level would embrace Christianity.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Steve, there ARE Saudis who follow Christ. I have met some of them. They are fine people
Truth is sometimes elusive. May the truth come forward.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Regarding killing apostates under Islam, there is a debate about that and no clear answer.
It is my experience that whenever Islamic scholars permit debate on such life-or-death topics to end with “no clear answer” that means that they will do nothing to stop or criminalize the activity under discussion. Thus by failing to do so, they essentially condone it.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Solomon2,
I agree with your comment. Most of the scholars that have taken alternative and more tolerant approaches to this issue are in the west, where the have the freedom to take a minority position. If they are in the Middle East they would not speak in such terms. It is a shame that our scholars do not have the courage to openly debate such topics in Islamic countries. Those debates usually get buried in academic writings with very few people having access to them.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
wow—shocking
August:13:2008 - 10:53
indeed Zani….
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Saudi in the US where could we find such information on the topic? Perhaps if a person asks a sheik to get a fatwa the issue would then be forced open?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Sparky,
There are many articles and book translations that you can find on the topic if you Google search for “apostate role in Islam”
I have searched this topic a few months ago, but did not keep all the article links.
I think the link below gives a good analysis of the background, although the author will take a more tolerant approach. That is differently a minority opinion:
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm
You will find other links that will cover a range of rulings also.
I think the solution for many of these problems is not more fatwas, but a serious look at developing a codified law, so these arguments stop once and for all.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Thank you for the information Saudi in the US. I will look into it. I don’t know if I would have taken the shahada at ALL if someone had said to me that “YOu know that in Islam if anyone ever decides this is not the path for them (or they turn their backs on Islam in pursuit of any other ideology/ belief) the punishment is execution or torturing until death falls upon them”
I would have said, “Not the path for me!” or I might have become a closet Muslim. Something is inherently and universally unappealing about apostasy. Jews kind of say once a Jew always a Jew (which I find amusing), Christians get all sad and down about someone leaving the religion and Muslims just murder people.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
What is worse is the arbitrary use of apostasy. You do not even have to renounce the religion to be called an apostate. Remember the case of the poor Turkish barber who was sentenced to death in Saudi. He was accused of blasphemy. Which in turn makes him an murtad/apostate (i.e. they can apply the death penalty on him). Luckily he was cleared on appeal, but for a few months he was sentenced. In my opinion, the appeal was successful in his case not because of the quality of justice in the courts, but due to the Turkish government appeals and the case becoming wildly covered international. If it was not for that he would have been executed by now.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Most of the scholars that have taken alternative and more tolerant approaches to this issue are in the west, where the have the freedom to take a minority position. If they are in the Middle East they would not speak in such terms.
You’re kidding, right? I thought it was in the West that Muslim scholars were afraid to speak up for fear of being labeled “bad Muslims”, whereas those in Muslim countries felt secure enough in their identity to speak their minds freely.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I’d certainly say he’s not kidding. Whether it’s scholars attempting to perform linguistic analysis of the Quran or those questioning the validity of the Hadith, most have been chased out of their own, Muslim countries and can work (and live safely) only outside them.
Sometimes the threat it jail; sometimes it’s losing one’s job; sometimes its the Shariah court trying to force a scholar to divorce his wife as he’s ‘no longer a Muslim’. There’s little to no freedom of thought when it comes to religious issues in most of the Arab Islamic world. Other Islamic countries far a bit better, but the situation is currently growing worse for them.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Solomon2,
It is all dependent on your definition of religious scholars. If you only include Imams of mosques in that definition then yes there isn’t much of a debate on this. However, if you extend the definition to include professors and researchers then you come up with a different picture. In universities in the Middle East there is a strong fear of loss or rank or progression. This is not the case in the West or even secular countries like India. Just consider the author of the the link I provided to Sparky, Dr. Ahmad Shafaat. Would he be able to write an article that is outside the consensus opinion if he was still teaching in Saudi instead of Montreal.
It is important to realize that the influence of such writers is minimal. However, they are publishing books and articles. They are able to do this for the reason that they do not have to suffer consequences or being labeled a bad Muslim. It will take a long time before such authors will gain influence, if ever.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I find this aspect of Islam extremely disturbing for a religion that claims to be peaceful and tolerant. I want the choice to believe what I want to believe and I hate for anything to be shoved down my throat. The violent and inhumane way this girl died at the hands of a relative who should have loved her and protected her is an unimaginable horror. The thought of converting to a religion that then threatens me with death if I renounce it later is so totally unappealing. Something is very wrong with this ideology.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
even though im muslim myself, but i never understood y many muslim scholars want muslims who convert to other religions 2 b killed—i believe that a muslim who doesnt wana remain muslim should b allowed freely 2 convert 2 whatever religion he or she wishes without any repercussions b it intimidation,threats, murder or exile—just like any non-muslim is allowed to convert to islam without any ramifications—im really sick of these fat bearded imbeciles who use a very rigid interpretation of religion and call it islam and impose it by force on muslims and non-muslims alike—this is coming 2 da point of insanity—there was no need for this girl 2 die and die at the hands of her father and not just any muslim father but a supposedly religious one at that. while most muslim youth r sick of rigid interpretations of islam, but apostasy is very rare and islam is not blamed,(i strongly agree with post #14 by abu) rather these ignorant bearded idiots r blamed and rightly so, since they believe their interpretation is da only correct one 2 plz Allah. even though i was born in a muslim family and lived and travelled to quite a few muslim lands, but i never truly appreciated my religion until i lived in europe and amerika. If i remained in those lands, who knows, i may had lost heart and becum an atheist secretly in my heart. These mullahz,imamz, ulema,syeds, whatever u call them, most of them, always disappointed me—they just made me and my friendz more confused and bitter becuz of their rigid and irrational actions. Regarding this girl, i feel really sorry for her, but i do think her father and brother r just plain animalz—maybe she didnt convert and was just trying 2 understand another religion maybe she did convert which would b ironic and sad, but murder is not da solution.
anyways, its very sad incident. dont know what else 2 say.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Saudi in US: One can always hope that what these thinkers write will make its way back into the hinterlands of thought. With the Internet, satellite TV, and open customs regimes permitting books to get through more easily, their ideas are not restricted only to the West anymore.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
[...] father worked for the Orwellian-named Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice. via John Burgess, who notes that the case is provoking debate within Saudi society. Though the death is a total [...]
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Saudi in US: I read the article at the link you provided. While some of the arguments seem good, its exegesis is kind of weak.
Besides, the real question is this: is it permitted to punish someone because he or she killed an apostate? Has anyone ever heard of a Muslim being punished for such a deed in an Arab country?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I read over the article and wasn’t completely satisfied. I chose three of his statements to respond to…
HE ASKED: “The death penalty may indeed discourage some from apostasy, but it would also encourage hypocrisy. And is it really better to have a lot of hypocrites among Muslims than to have a lot of apostates?”
I ANSWERED “NO”
HE SAID: “Consequently, the best way to reduce apostasy is to increase knowledge of Islam and to combat poverty, ignorance and other problems that plague the Muslim world.”
I AGREE
HE WARNED: “Muslims have wisely and correctly tolerated such disbelief because they recognize that the way to iman is not always smooth and may pass through doubts and confusion (cf. Qur`an 6:76-79, 93:7). However, if a Muslim expresses his disbelief in the form of a declared position and insists on its truth publicly, then he will be considered an apostate.”
I SAID: Basically he is saying it o.k to be confused but not to speak about this confusion in public? How are any ISSUES going to be solved if we are automatically labeled an apostate for bringing them to light? Not many people like being labeled and any such intellectual questioning is automatically cut off as family members as we have seen in this news story do not always provide the best support in the times of confusion.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Slomon2,
I provided the article as an example of alternative writing. Whether the analysis quality is good or not is a matter of debate between scholars, but that is the point. Is there an open debate along these issues in the Muslim countries? The answer is no. Anyone with alternative ideas is cast a side (ironically in some cases even considered an apostate). I would like to add that many of the what is considered mainstream ideology is never debated and has weak evidence also.
“is it permitted to punish someone because he or she killed an apostate?”
I think Islam, even when applying the extreme version of applying Hedah roles, requires a formal trial of offenders. So yes, if Shariia is applied correctly vigilante killings should not be allowed, as a judge is required to render such punishment. In practice these cases are covered up in most countries.
“Has anyone ever heard of a Muslim being punished for such a deed in an Arab country?”
Yes, I think I brought this up in one of my replies to you at the ambericanbedu blog. The case of eliminating Mahmoud Mohamed Taha in Sudan is a good one to look at as it is well documented. It is a political killing using apostate laws. This is not surprising since this type of ruling has been used throughout Islamic history to eliminate foes. Whether it is through official government or rouge groups like Al Khwarij, the apostate charge is effective and can easily stick to a person. You can call a person an apostate if s/he the argued against any religious ruling no matter how good their argument is as long as you have enough power to execute on the charge.
You can also look at cases covered on this blog regarding using this law to order the execution of citizens. The case of the Turkish Barber and the Case of the Witch in Saudi are clear use of Apostate/Ridah laws. The idea is if a person practiced witchcraft or committed blasphemy they have rejected Islam and can be executed.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Sparky,
You bring up good points. As I said earlier in my reply to Saolomon2, the problem is not whether 1 study is completely accurate neither has the best evidence, it is the fact that an open debate does not occur to improve understanding.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Uh, Saudi in US, I didn’t ask if judicial executions of people alleged to be apostates had occurred. I asked if judicial punishment of those who killed apostates had occurred.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Sorry, I mixed up the issues there. Of course you can find such cases. Contemporary political systems mostly use apostasy for political purposes, whether that is eliminating a person on such charge or punishing a group for vigilante killing of apostate. When Sadat was assassinated the group justified his killing as an apostate. The leaders of that group were tried and executed for the charges.
I would not say an average person killed for apostasy will get justice. I think governments will cover these cases as much as possible and may be use other charges to punish offenders.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
When Sadat was assassinated the group justified his killing as an apostate. The leaders of that group were tried and executed…I would not say an average person killed for apostasy will get justice.
Eh? Omar Abdel-Rahman was later convicted and sentenced to life in prison in the U.S. for the 1993 World Trade Center attack, and Zawahiri is co-leader of Al Qaeda. Many others involved in the Sadat’s assassination have been released, and from his strangely inactive bodyguard no one was brought to trial at all. Furthermore, no leader from another Arab country showed up at his funeral. If that’s “justice”, then in my humble opinion it is very difficult to distinguish from a conspiracy followed by a cover-up.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Solomon2 that is some juicy conspiracy stuff there.
Also thank you Saudi in the US for your explanations.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
it o.k to be confused but not to speak about this confusion in public? How are any ISSUES going to be solved if we are automatically labeled an apostate for bringing them to light?
Has Sparky discovered an absolute, built-in limit to Muslim inquiry and scholarship?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Saolomn2,
Omar Abdul-Alrhman was imprisoned, tortured then released after acquittal of the charges against him in Egypt. I am sure the Egyptian government went even over the line trying to make a charge stick, but it could not. The real tough question is why did the US let him in the country when he was on the watch list. And further it allowed such dangerous personality to roam across the country for 3 years when they can have simply expelled him (he was in the country on a tourist visa).
Regarding Zawahiri, He was a small player with a big mouth at the time of the Sadat assassination. He was not one of the leaders, but ironically gained prominence and fame through the trial because he spoke English well and was able to grab the spot lights of the cameras.
Regarding the Sadat funeral, Unfortunately many of the Arabic leaders did not have the courage that Sadat had when he put the interest of his nation above his own. They could not even muster enough of it to take a risk as small as attending a funeral.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
hi, saw the story there.. i dont know, but it sounds kinda fishy… for starters, the guy’s job makes the story sound tailored… and there are two versions of the story as well, one where she is a sister and the other she is a daughter… beside, what kinda source that would be close to such a man would talk to a female reporter, and why would he tell any one about the crime? i live in the kingdom, police denied the story, and i think they are actually reight, (not that i dont think commission members are capable of worse).. it just doesnt fit…
that site you posted, its banned here in saudi arabia, as well as almost all other chiristian and liberal-islam sites, so how could she go to that site or blog? and what kind of commission member would let his sister/daughter have internet and even tv, with all the effort they are putting in making any one that allows his family to use both a “dayoth” (very bad arabic word used to describe a man who has no sexual jealousy for his family) .. i think commission members are brainless thugs, but the story doesnt sound right.. beside, when i was in Jordan last year, they had a story about a “saudi Christian” as well.. that one was about a sick saudi that came to jordan for treatment (seriously!!!) and he was killed and chopped by a taxi driver, put in a car trunk, and when the cops opened the trunk he was alive and healed of his fatal illness !!! and he said that the mother of god had come and told him to go back to life or whatever!! the person that told me this story was a 22 year old christian jordainan engineering student, who was very very sure of this story and he actually used it to try and prove the existance of God (since i was arguing to prove that he doesnt)… in stories like these saudis are usually used due to their religious significance, since they are thought to be all fanatic muslims, and converting a saudi would mean more than converting someone else (if they only knew) ..
any way.. sorry for taking so much of ur time…
August:13:2008 - 10:53
For Saudis(salafis) Shi-Ism and any other sects in Islam are ‘Christianity’! So which christianity she had converted to?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz: You raise very good points. There does seem to be something off about this story. You’ve certainly provided a list of things that don’t ring true.
Saudi in US: Omar Abdul-Rahman’s visa was the subject of Congressional investigation. The short version is that the person who issued him the visa—in Sudan, btw—screwed up. Either he didn’t check the list or was using an out of date list. Once in the US, Abdul-Rahman used all the legal tricks to claim asylum and the courts couldn’t find grounds enough to deport him. (US courts, while perhaps not as impossible as UK courts in this regard, can lose sight of the forest for the trees.)
John H: Usually, Shi’ites get lumped as a form of Judaism by the Salafis. Some of the Shi’a, like the Alawis do get called ‘Christians’, though, at least in Syria.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz even if the story is fabricated, which I do not believe it is, there are some crazy people in all cultures and all you need to do is tell your even moderate Saudi family that you have converted to Christianity and you are at least in for a good beating. RIGHT? Especially the more defiant you would persist the worse someone flipping out. Internet in Saudi is available in schools! WIFI is available everywhere. Plus I know very religious people who have not T.V. but will have the internet.
When I was in Saudi, I had an unsecure (not password protected) WIFI at my house which means my neighbors could use my internet freely if they wanted to. Please instead of denying think about the issue at hand rather than rejecting it. Think… is something like this possible and why?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
oh its possible alright… its in the law that if you change your religion you are to be killed. im not arguing with that, im just saying that this story doesnt sound right.as for internet in schools, what type of schools are you talking about? female public schools dont have internet, and “very relegious” families are quite different than commission members’ families, these guys consider a girl thatuses internet a prostitute. where did you live in saudi Arabia, did you live in Manfooha or naseem for example? i dont think you answered any of the questions i asked.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Has Sparky discovered -
I guess she has. Answering “no” would require justifying it, (which apparently isn’t possible or somebody would have replied), while answering “yes” would confirm that the respondent is an apostate, isn’t that so?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Saolomn2,
Actually I had a reply, but there is a pattern every time I answer something you come up with a new topic. Not complaining, just got worn out from all the different out of topics yesterday :).
Regarding absolute limit, that is up to the interpretation on where the line is drawn. Every religion has a limit on questioning the existence of god. You can take that as the absolute red line that should not be crossed. Hence if you have faith there is a limitation.
Of course there are other lines based on any specific scholar interpretation. I do not think this one drew a line here, he gave an opinion. Which is fine. There are more conservative researchers that have many restrictions and may even back it up by calling a person an apostate if he crosses them. One of the biggest issues with Islam today is there are so many contradictory fatwas by the leading clerics, it leaves the average person confused.
My personal opinion is that Islam has 5 pillars. If you follow them then you are a Muslim. Every thing else can be looked into for clarification as long as the person has pure intent to find the truth.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz I lived in Rawda 1 very near exit 12 highway and I have friends inclusive of all types of people ranging from the very poorest to the very richest from the least educated to the most educated. I don’t limit myself to certain ‘types’. You making a differentiation between the “commission’ and ‘religious’ is perhaps important. If there is a difference then why don’t ‘religious’ people do something about these so called ‘commission’ members?
To answer your questions….(first I didn’t know they were directed to me)! So pardon me please do not come at me like that. If you have a question you want me to address please address me directly. I will answer your question, YOu asked “Beside what kinda source would be so close to such a man that would talk to a female reporter ….(etc.)
From your very question you have proven that you have little contact with certain aspects of Saudi society. I know a few female Saudi journalists and they come in contact with men as part of their job. Does that surprise you? I have read this women’s reports Mariam Hakeem and she is a brave women but you seem like a coward! It seems like you live in Naseem or Hanfoofa or whatever. I know a few people from there and there isn’t anything wrong with them. Are you going to tell me all government schools for girls do not have internet? Perhaps when you were in school they didn’t? I need to check on that one. I know people in the Ministry of Education who were training their staff and their focus was on English and Computers. And you know what Aziz if the Saudi government schools do not have internet then SHAME on them because Saudi has one of the highest expenditures on education per capita and a lot of it is spent by thieves. I have a story I could post right now about CHILDREN who were promised to go to SWEDEN and you know what it didn’t come through because the people at the Ministry were on VACATION! Imagine kids being promised something and then one of the employees pulling off something like thAT
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Two questions…
Solomon2 if you throw me in the hot water are you going to pull me out?
Aziz now you know where I live are you going to kill me?
John will you be my savior?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Oops that was three questions and no I do not work for the commission. This is not a trap I assure everyone.
I do know my basic arithmetic…
August:13:2008 - 10:53
ANd let me tell everyone who is listening or reading. I am so sick of the B.S. it really needs to be cleared! Purge it…rehabilitate it…Deal with it MAN…
Prove to me why in my confusion or anyone else’s for that matter AZIZ I would deserve death! Is that what your heart and mind tells you? I am sure not unless you are pure evil. YOu have said, “That is what the law says!” I say what law? Allah’s law? Is that what God is telling you to do?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz,
When I did the checking on this on Arabic forums there are many that wrote about her and even provided her name (I am not going to provide that just in case the story is false). According to the stories I read she was 26, a teacher by profession, and had her own laptop and internet access. There was is an interview with a Saudi convert (over an hr long). The person who provided the link indicated it was a phone interview with the women in question with a Coptic online show. The woman in the interview sounded very much Saudi and talked about her journey of conversion. Ironically she spoke about having trouble reaching sites because of the internet issues in Saudi (by the way many people use proxies to get over issues like this with a little tech savvy). She was a devout Muslim who became disenfranchised, then became non religious before her final conversion to Christianity.
Many of the Christian forums are calling her a martyr and are even devoting special space for her on their forums including banners for site displays. This is either a true story or a very well constructed hoax. Having no official reply on the story from the Saudi authorities gives the former a higher probability.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I don’t think Aziz was trying to whitewash this issue. He raised good questions about the story, pointing out the many things we don’t know about it.
Perhaps that useful information is unknown because it is being suppressed; perhaps it’s unknown because some of it isn’t true.
Conflicting stories don’t necessarily mean that someone is lying. Most often, in my experience, they mean that we don’t have all the information we need or want.
Unfortunately, stories originating in the KSA are very hard to nail down. Saudi media is not as professional as it might be and harsh editing often takes important details out of stories. Then, as I’ve noted in other contexts, there’s that tendency to avoid naming names and stating facts when they might embarrass someone.
I think this story is still up in the air. Perhaps it’s true; perhaps it’s false; certainly we don’t know what we need to know.
The problem is that the story is believable, true or false. The Kingdom has such a bad reputation when it comes to things like religious freedom that almost any negative story is believable.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz,
Just to clarify, I took your questions in the same spirit as John did and just wanted to add information from what I have found from my readings. I still have some doubts about the story. However, not as strong as yours.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I just wanted to chime in and remark that as one who is in Riyadh and routinely interacts with media, many reputable journalists are staying away from this story as attempts to further validate were not successful. Any attempts continued to only provide sketchy information which was not acceptable for reputable international journalists who wish to report fairly and accurately on the Kingdom.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
back to the story, why on earth did gulf news report this? did the reporter add any details? no.. all she added was the last bit about “saudi scholars… etc etc” which can actually be said about lots of things they warn of as well … all she did is: she quoted a story from a christian site, and then she quoted the same story from a very unreliable saudi site that quoted the story from the christian site… oh and the saudi site, its not famous at all.. actually this is the first time i even hear of it.and note that its a southern news site, based in Najran.. and actually its a shiite site !!! which means that they are totally biased when it comes to those who are actually opressing them (the name Ukhdood refers to the story of christian opression by jewish kings of yemen, the name was no coincidence).
i hope you can read arabic Saudi in US, if you can plz check the original story as well as the following stories which u will find on the site:
http://www.okhdood.com
- an italian scholar discovers the “shahada” (allah and mohammed’s names) on top of the virigin’s head in a famous medieval painting (the piza board)
- a reply to Husni Mubarak’s statments regarding Shiaa, saying that egypt is a shiite country
- a story about shiite miracles in Al-Awamia, Qateef …
——————————————-
now tell me, is that an authentic source. not that i hate shiaa or any thing, god forbid, but simply because it is co,prehendable that these people will be biased because these are the people opressing them we are talking about.
i think Mariam Al-Hakim should apologize for depending on sources that are obviously biased and unreliable, or she should be fired.
ps. i tried to submit the links to each story, but my reply wouldnt appear here, probably because the link had arabic words in it (search results)
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz: No, there were too many links in your comment. The anti-spam software for the blog will hold any comment with too many links (number not stated) for me to decide whether it was spam or not.
Clearly yours was not spam, so I cleared it as soon as I saw it. I did delete the earlier copies as redundant.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz you didn’t answer my questions. Anyhow, please don’t say you are aren’t bigoted towards Shiaa. It is obvious in your post that you are. It is obvious that you want to attack and see this particular female journalist fired, I agree that if it was intentionally falsified by her she would have to apologize but if it wasn’t and it happened to be false the newspaper should be in trouble not HER.
About sticking to a subject can you please elaborate on what the name of Mohammed and the shahada is doing on the head of a virgin?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Also John about people staying away from certain stories. I have never been in a place nor met such a bunch of cowards…especially men with few exceptions. Do you think I was joking when I said I met a young Saudi women who had started reading and expressing interest in Christianity and the sheik beat the hell out of her and claimed that previously her skin came on fire or would release a burning smell?
I guess I am a liar and should stop writing too or be bannished.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
No, I don’t think for a moment that you’re a liar. I hope I never suggested that you were.
What I did was to agree with Aziz that there are conflicting reports and a huge lack of verifiable information. As I said, this does not make the story false, but neither does it prove it to be true.
I also said that the story is all-too-believable in Saudi Arabia. I do also note that there is a dearth of similar stories coming out of the KSA, though plenty seem to originate in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sudan, and Nigeria. A lack of evidence is no proof, either, of course, but it does raise questions.
I do not automatically believe anything I read in the media; even less do I automatically believe things I read on blogs. I will accept them, tentatively, but always look for more evidence.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
John,
I do agree with your point. It just highlights that when it comes to Saudi, there is a lack of believability in the media due to excessive government control. Sparky is right in the sense that some stories cannot be touched by the local media. Also, all the authorities have to do is refute the story and provide information on the sources to make this turn to their side. The fact that they are not doing that makes the rumor propagate.
Aziz, Yes I agree some of those stories you listed from that site are strange. However, I read similar ones from mainstream Saudi newspapers also. Stories about someone seeing Lilat al-alqadr and the sky lit up at night for him, or seeing the name of Allah on a fish, etc. I am not saying that the site has all authentic stories, it is just you are applying different standards to opposition sites. As a matter of rule, I do not believe any story coming from the Middle East at a 100% level, I just try to give them a degree of believability based type of story, sources, amount of information, etc.
Like I said earlier, if this is not true, someone must have taken a lot of time to construct a good hoax. In either case the authorities can either verify the story or provide information on who made the hoax. There is plenty of information out there for them to refute the story including the name of a woman that is supposedly dead. They can say this woman does not exist based on our records, is a life and well or died under these verifiable circumstances. Such statement will go a long way to help. I am afraid this story will not die if they do not do the above. Once Western Christian sites get a hold of it, it will blow up into a big scandal by people that do not wish Saudi well.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
sparky, nothing there to answer. and i dont have to prove to you whether or not i like any one, since that has nothing to do with you. funny how you say that i want “this particular journalist” fired, since i have never heard of her before reading this story, but i guess in the coco land you live in, every thing is possible. about sticking to the subject, read saudi in us’s reply, apparently he understood the point. again, i find no pleasure in replying to what you write since you really need a lesson in manners.
John.. i disagree, i think you are familiar with the term null hypothesis. you cant suppose something is true just because you cant prove it wrong, vampires dont exist because i cant prove they dont.
saudi, true.. even newspapers like okaz publish Jin and sorcery stories on first page, but okaz has 600 reporters around the country, that paper doesnt have any … and it might have been no more than a rumor spreading in the eastern region among the shiaa population and they picked it up.. and seriously, its not even that good of a hoax to say that someone spent time making it.. the name is very generic, a big tribe (meaning that there are dozens of women with that name) and it was actually adjusted from daughter to sister..
thank you.. and goodbye
August:13:2008 - 10:53
The Koran states the Bible is a Holy book. Why is a Muslim who becomes Chrisitian considered an apostate?
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Aziz I am not trying to win the contest of Mrs. Manners and I certainly do not need you or anybody else to “teach” me. I am who and what I am. I have lived in both the States and KSA and while both can be cookoo at times KSA is by far in the lead in my opinion!
August:13:2008 - 10:53
It is wrong of all of you to judge this father.
His beliefs are to be respected, his culture is different than yours.
Also, if muslims invade europe (again) and wish to take over, you europeans need to respect that they are different. Just because they will ignore international laws and break treaties (like Iran), and call for the destruction of another country, and promote terrorism, and despise the separation of church and state, and treat women like property… they are not necessarily ‘bad’ people.
Shame on all of you for passing judgment according, from your narrow western christian peace & freedom perspective.
Is there any point to this comment other than to try to ignite a flame war? Do better next time, please. JB
August:13:2008 - 10:53
As a non-westerner and non-christian, I would say a “peace and freedom perspective” is a pretty decent one to have.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
Amen to that sister olivetheoil
Muhammed please respect your name!
August:13:2008 - 10:53
I’m pretty sure that this ‘muhammed’ is just jerking our chains here. Ignore him and he’ll go away, or maybe improve the content of his comments!
August:13:2008 - 10:53
John, I agree. He/she is just provoking. I am still hoping that the Saudi government can come out and prove this story wrong. That will be positive news for a change.
August:13:2008 - 10:53
for the millionth time, police denied the story. colonel Abdulaziz Al-Salman, spokesman for the eastern region police denied it to Al-Watan and Sabq and several other newspapers.
i posted that in addition to a link to his statment in a previous reply, and it was deleted …
look it up..
oh and by the way, is killing your daughter or sister coz ur a burger flipping drunk or drug addict any better than killing because of relegious reasons? God i just hate hypocrisy…
sparky, if you hate it that much, why dont u just move back to the states and save ur self the trouble of living near “fundimentalists” like me ??!!
ive always though dialouge is a stupid idea, i have my reasons to believe that… you guys gave me more reasons…
Salam
August:13:2008 - 10:53
“for the millionth time, police denied the story. colonel Abdulaziz Al-Salman, spokesman”
According to you, you posted it once and it was deleted, how did that 1 turn into a MILLION? Get a hold of your attitude you are sounding pathetic. I have treated you with respect in every reply, I guess I made a mistake in thinking you are rational. The only link I saw you provide is the Okhdood site. By the way I also tried to find the article in both newspapers and searched Google for it. I cannot find it. Not saying it does not exist, I may not be using the right search terms. I used Arabic search for the colonel’s name. I got 3 pages of hits from both newspapers but not on the specific article. Post the link and I would be happy to read it.
“is killing your daughter or sister coz ur a burger flipping drunk or drug addict any better than killing because of relegious reasons? God i just hate hypocrisy…?”
No, killing a person is the same no matter what reason. I do not know where you got that one from. The hypocrisy only exists in your mind.