Saudi Gazette reports that the US government has extended the life of visas granted to Saudis from two years to five years. This is particularly helpful to Saudi students who will no longer have to take a chance on renewing their visas halfway through undergraduate study. Many, since 9/11, found that once they returned to the KSA to visit family and renew their visas they could get caught up in a Kafkaesque drama of getting that visa. This led many to give up on their studies or to transfer to other countries’ universities.
The period of visa validity is generally a reciprocal affair: If Country A grants Country B’s citizens a 5-year visa, then Country B give the same 5-year visa to Country A’s citizens. I’m assuming this is the case here, but have not sought a Saudi visa since last year.
RIYADH – Effective from May 17, the United States has agreed to extend the validity of visa issued to Saudi citizens from two years to five years in a joint agreement on reciprocal basis, an official source at the Foreign Ministry told Saudi Press Agency (SPA) on Monday.
The new 5-year multiple entry US visa will be granted to Saudi students, businesspeople, and tourists.
In the aftermath of 9/11, there has been a major problem for Saudi to obtain a US visa, going through a range of complicated security procedures before a visa has been issued, or denied in many cases. Saudi visa applicants had a rough time with only one US visa office open in Riyadh, and recently the Dhahran visa office. US visa office in Jeddah remains closed.
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May:20:2008 - 11:02
well, sound gread, but still not enough, and it dosen’t matter if was 2 years or even one year, the real matter the guarantee to get visa when I apply for it, or they shouldn’t make it required to pay visa fee befor interview, otherwise they should pay it back if the visa refused.
most people asked for visa proofed that they are trustworthy people by all the official documents which are required but it wasn’t good enough for the US embassy, unfortunately they judge all saudies people procession in principle 9/11 and that is wrong and unfair.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif, I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The US Embassies and Consulates (in the KSA or elsewhere) do not reject visas simply because one is Saudi. If you’re applying in the KSA, you’ll have a much better chance of getting a visa than if, for example, you apply in Karachi or Bangkok or London. That’s because it’s easier to check documentation, police records, etc.
It’s not just documents that are verified. Every applicant’s name gets run through the local police as well as various US police and intelligence databases (imperfect as they may be). Ultimately, visa issuance comes down to whether the Consular Officers believe what an applicant says, trust that his documents are correct.
There’s no doubt that Saudi applicants come in for a higher level of scrutiny. The US Embassy in Riyadh was the first to have officials from the Department of Homeland Security assigned to provide an additional set of eyes (and standards) to Saudi applications. 9/11 also changed the way Saudis had to apply for visas–now, in person, by appointment. Prior to 9/11, things were much easier. Too easy, in the view of most Americans and the US Congress.
You may blame the US government for this, but it really belongs on the head of Usama bin Laden and the Saudis recruited to take part in that attack.
Application fees, be they for university enrollment, clubs, or visas are exactly that: fees you pay in order to apply. They are not the cost of some product; they are the cost of the application and the work involved in vetting the application, regardless of whether it ends up being issued.
Note, too, that obtaining a visa does not guarantee you a right to enter the US. That’s up the Immigration Officer at the port of entry. If s/he doesn’t like what s/he sees, you can be denied entry and put on the next plane or boat back home.
No one has a right to enter another country unless he follows that country’s laws pertaining to entry.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Perhaps consulate officers aren’t making these things clear to Saudi visa applicants and the Saudi public. If we assume Yusif’s attitude is representative, then the belief is widespread that Saudis think they need only pay a fee and fill out a few papers to be admitted to the U.S., and therefore they feel cheated when that doesn’t happen.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Instructions are available in Arabic on the Embassy’s website. There are also printed materials explaining the process available at the visa office.
There may certainly be some cultural assumptions being made, as in the purpose and non-refundable nature of application fees, but the misunderstandings probably cut both ways.
There’s also the point that there is no 100% certainty on what documentary evidence will be deemed acceptable. Part of that is intentional, to stop people from gaming the system. A larger part is that each case is considered individually. One applicant may make his case better than the next.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
John, first of all, thanks for your attention and telling your opinion which I truely respect.
and I want you to be sure I’m not blaming the US gov. and will never do, when they protect thier compatriots, it would even give me good Impression that I would be in safe there if I’m there tho.
but that wasn’t my point, and yes the only one we all blam
is Osama but it’s not every saudi fault when there one was among of them which is originaly not Saudi but it’s not what we talk about in here.
you mentioned that it’s much easier when applying in KSA.
and I’m wondering from where you got this information.
I hope not from media nor news paper or from any political statement on tv. you only would face that through reality inside US embassy.
for example, I applyed forvisa first time 2 years ago for tourism
but visa denyed and I didn’t Objected, and next year my cousin was in US for treatment of cancer for more than 6 months and I wanted vsit him , so I asked for visa again with all evidenced he sent to me from John Hopckins and his doctor mention the can call him if nedded, also all the official documents proof who am I also a letter as recommendation from Minister of the Interior office, and the isa denyed again and when I asked for the reason all they answered me , it just I’m not qualified.
IF I’m not qualified in that time to visit my cousin in that critical period of his life , when I will be ?
and with this new extends what difference if 2 or 5 year, if they don’t count humanity reasons through hard circumstances.
and you have said, No one has a right to enter another country unless he follows that country laws pertaining to entry.
I agree with you, but as protocol of political relation both should teart thier people same way and equal, not look at others by the same eyes they see Osama
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif:
I’m relying on personal experience. Having worked at both the Consulate in Dhahran and the Embassy in Riyadh, I’ve had to deal with visas. Even more, I’ve had to deal with trying to explain to people why they didn’t get a visa. (I’ve done the same in seven other countries, too, but let’s focus on the KSA.)
The presumption of US visa law is that any applicant truly intends to stay in the US illegally, if given a visa. The burden is therefore on the applicant to demonstrate conclusively that this is not the case. And yes, this is an example of ‘guilty unless proved innocent’, the opposite of the usual legal situation in the US. That’s because it’s not in the US.
Overcoming the presumption of intention to stay in the US is not easy; for some it’s harder than for others. Not only is one’s own situation examined, but also those of a family. People from a certain town in Syria, for example, will never get a visa because everyone from that town in the past jumped his/her visa. Similarly, if your surname happens to match that of particular others who have violated visa law, it will be much harder for you to convince the visa officer of your bona fides. If someone presents documents signed by an official who, in the past, had signed fraudulent documents, that signature will be discounted ever afterward. If documents come from a bank that has a spotty history of being truthful, future documents will receive great scrutiny and even greater doubt.
Rejected applicants are not told explicitly why they didn’t qualify because that would only lead to the malefactors changing the way they do business, making it harder to catch in the future.
As I have no idea of your particular circumstances, I am of course not saying any of the above applies to you. But things like these complicate the visa process both for the visa office and the applicants. Innocent people do end up suffering, because no one has perfect information on all things at all times.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif I feel sad that you were unable to attend a dying and very sick relative. That is wrong in my opinion. However, you mentioned something about the ministry of interior and wanting the U.S.to be humane. I intend to do something really big regarding the INJUSTICE of a near and dear friend of mine who is not getting a visa to come and see her children. How screwed up is that? Just because her husband has connections he can prevent her from her due rights. She is Singaporean. Anyhow that is on my list of things to do along with quite a few other things. So if you think you got your battles with the U.S. and injustice then I have quite a few with your Saudi Government.
Can you imagine the Chief of Police allows strangers to come into his office and shift through police records. I have proof of everything with dates reference numbers etc. I am just waiting for the time to blow the friggin lid of the pressure cooker baby! ! ! I am going to give people one more chance to help me before I stir a load of shit around.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
I am roaring like a fierce lion and this my Kingdom ! ! !
The Kingdom of Children
Don’t mess with it or suffer the consequences!
In all seriousness Yusif, perhaps you can help me get a visa for my friend to see her children. The children that she sacrificed her life for. The children she was so devoted to. Then her Saudi husband on one of his trips meets up with a Moroccan marries her and kicks my friend and his own mother to the curb. Very nice huh. Because he is a Godly Saudi nobody can even touch him. He has his godly rights granted by your beloved Ministry of Interior. I swear as God as my witness I will meet Prince Naif and spill out my heart and all these issues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Never underestimate how one crazy lady can change the world….
Thanks to a mom who taught me never sleep without a shotgun next to my bed or a sharp blade under the mattress. (Figurately speaking of course)
Nice place to blow off some steam. Thank you Johnny for such a nice place for this blowing off steam.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Sparky, you should start your own blog,
Then you will become famous, and a force to be reckoned with, you will be on Aljazeera and CNN, and you will get stuff done!
Or get shot by some bigotted loony.
Anyway, you’ll have my support!
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Thanks for cheering me on. Option one seems nicer than getting shot by some bigotted loony. However, if I even kept bigotted loonies so much as a thought of any type of force in my mind, I would never speak it freely.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
I’m serious about the blog though.
If you post on tghese isuues they would get a lot of attention, and you are right in the middle.
Oh, because you are right in the middle tyour blog would be taken out immediately.
you know what? I’ll host it overhere!
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Thank you Aafke
I feel happy posting at John’s blog because I do believe a lot of people read it not necessarily comment on it.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Thaks to all who share me this discussion and your sympathy
Jhon, thanks again for your understanding dialogue
I believed you have plenty idea of saudi citizen cultuer
maybe you didn’t live long enough time for sociable relation
with friends while you wee working in KAS if in Dhahran or in Riyadh
but sure you have met some which gave you good Impression
you know that more than I do, in US the gov. would send anyone
staying there illegely to thier own country and which is very known when a saudi ones went to US there’s only four reasons
studying, business, medical or tourism
we can’t compare that with people from!
syrian, lebanon, egypt or phlipines or indian as example
you know that they would stay for work but not saudies
so it dosen’t make any sense to deny visa if that is the reason
for saudies
other thing you mentioned in your first comment
its easy to get visa from KSA more than from Karachi or Bangkok
because its easier to check documentation police records
and if that was true than why they show that they afraid if saudi would go to stay in US?
but its not the reason they made for thier excuse.
otherwise, there is really big contradiction when they made
traveling to syria another reason to deny visa, because
in US Embassy in Riyadh 25% of thier employee originaly syrian
whit American Nationalty, so how come US give them nationalty but
don’t accept any to travel to thier country if they go to thier home land in thier vacation time ?
but it’s not our case right now and like you said focus on the KSA
we don’t need to make our discussion to get ramify through other different cases
I have told you and you already know that what the really four reason
for saudies when they travel to US, you assumed know that of your experience
when you were working there.
you also know that well specialy after 9/11 all the documents
we must attached with visa applications are official and legally
from work and bank and they proved with full informations, details, I don’t deny that befor 9/11 we get visa in 10 minuts
when we asked for it from US Embassy in riyadh even with out interview. I remeber that as well if just yesterdy
and in my situation I showed full documents from my work , my bank even recommendation from offecial office plus documents from legal hospital known in whole world they easy can read the doctor report and see that he said “call me for more information if need” but they didn’t which they can do great scrutiny to find the trut but it seems they don’t trust Johns Hopkins.
I know you are not saying what you explain to me and my circumstances complicate but in general we still need to deal and treat other in humanity and it should be in our action more than just in our saying.
but the major of our discussion, it dosen’t matter to me if they extends visa 5 years or 10 when I wouldn’t get it when need it.
I don’t mind to apply every 6 months or 1 years if its surely
I will have it only with trustable and official and legal documentations they proved I’m trustworthy person
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif: You say,
.
Not to put too fine a point on it, 9/11 provided a fifth reason.
Visa officials, American or third country nationals, are going to be hypersensitive toward Saudi applicants because they do not want to be held responsible for granting the visa that leads to another 9/11. Most of the 15 Saudis involved in that attack had proper visas. Every single person involved in granting those visas was hauled before a US Congressional committee and forced to explain how and why that visa was granted. No sensible person wants to go through that.
The ease with which Saudis were granted visas pre-9/11 was considered a problem by 9/12. The current process is considered too lax by many Americans today. I think the best that can be hoped for is that the process work as best it can, though that is not going to be perfect. It will be unfair to some, but the cost of failure is simply seen as too high a price to bear.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
John, you added 9/11 as a fifth reason.
and its not true reason, many go to US for the four
reasons I mentiond, but not all went there for 9/11 reason.
and like I said befor we don’t need our dscussion to get
ramify to another subject.
in your last comment you just stick on 9/11 and made it a reason
and that is not true.
and if you open for all media and Internet forums specialy
american forums like myspace, you would read lots of many facts
saying the 9/11 inside job even it did happend by 19 persons
15 of them as saudies, and if you like all know that all of the 15 was under 30 years old and all of them got thier college studies in US which mean what ever they believe in , they got it in thier collge and somehow US help into that
I’m not saying 9/11 was’nt sad tragedy day, nor give any
excuse.
but as simple people (citizens) saudies or ramericans theres true and close friends of us and we still have.
everywhere theres among of us good and bad ones if in saudia or america or in anyother country, we shuldn’t avoid that fact
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif, since 9-11 a great majority of Americans believe that tighter visa restrictions on Saudis is the just approach. Justice to the larger community isn’t always fair to the individual. In America we have our Bill of Rights to protect citizens, nationals, and visitors from government apply such standards unduly, but they don’t apply to non-citizens and non-nationals living abroad who want to come to the U.S. Peoples form nations for reasons of comfort and security, so there is a big difference between being inside the fence and being outside it.
if you open for all media and Internet forums specialy
american forums like myspace, you would read lots of many facts
saying the 9/11 inside job
That’s just comfort food for those who find it digestible. Some people are voicing it because they find it necessary to sustain doubts for personal or political reasons. Arabs may have more problems with such things than Westerners. The Dar Al Hayat article I’ve linked to has some commentary on this, but the author isn’t even aware that he might have his own failings in this matter.
The link here between 9-11 and visa issues is the notion of collective responsibility. Because the fact that the 9-11 hijackers were primarily Saudi is considered unpalatable by most, you are skirting the issue that Saudi society could share responsibility for forming their minds. You certainly agree with the idea of that society could be at fault, for you go so far as to insinuate that somehow American society is responsible for letting them in on scholarships.
Therefore, you hold that it is unfair that you personally are repeatedly given extra scrutiny as a result and this keeps you from seeing a sick relative in a timely fashion, even though you may be completely innocent of hostile or illicit intentions. And you’re right, it is unfair. But it’s the right thing to do, at least until America can come up with a better way to screen people.
Justice isn’t always fair, and fairness isn’t always justice.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif: Sorry, but 9/11 was not an ‘inside job’. That’s simply crazy thinking.
Saudi citizens used to be the best visa candidates ever. As you noted, they came home when the purpose of their visit was done; they never tried to chance citizenship; they never became a burden on the public purse. Those things are still mostly true (some Saudis are seeking US citizenship in order to find meaningful jobs).
I think Saudis are great people, on the whole. But there are some Saudis–including the ones who took part in 9/11, in the May and November 2003 bombings in the KSA, in suicide missions in Iraq, in planning to attack the Haj or oil facilities last year–who cause reasonable people to wonder just what’s going on in the KSA. This causes the average American (who influences Congress) to be both skeptical of and afraid of Saudis, the Saudi government, and Saudi institutions. Media and think-tank reports on Saudi extremism, true or false, make people think there’s something wrong with Saudis. These people are not interested in historical or cultural analysis: they simply don’t want to be killed by a Saudi extremist. In the end, this means that they put their right to life ahead of your right to seek a visa.
As Solomon noted, this is patently unfair to individual Saudis. I agree. But there’s not really a perfect solution available at the moment. Things will get better (in at least one sense) when people have biometric identification stored in databases. Then, it’ll be possible to prove that Person X is truly Person X. It will get better (in one sense) when people in the US on visas can have the actual presence verified regularly and routinely. But those things have very major negative factors, too. They will end up being unfair to other people in other ways.
The best that can be hoped for is a functional system that serves both American interests and those of visa applicants. I think perfection and absolute fairness will have to wait for heaven.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif: You ignored my comments regarding your Saudi government denying visas to mothers. Is that subject not important. Is that not unfair? But then again I am just a woman who gives a damn.
Might not have been a bad move to deny Yusif his Visa to the U.S.. Two thumbs up!
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Sparky
I’m so sorry, I didn’t ignore your comments i jst thought
your friend denyed to get visa to go to US too.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
guys I did post comments on what Solomon and John post
but it didn’t apply , whats wrong ?
May:20:2008 - 11:02
I am going to America…what a great country
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif…YOur government Saudi Arabia or the more specifically denies mother’s visas to come to Saudi Arabia. Get it.
For example, a Saudi marries a Singaporean then divorces her.
A. She has no right to stay here even if she has children
B. If she applies for a visit visa from her country the MOI of interior blocks it.
Get it?
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Also the MOI arrests peaceful protesters. GET IT?
Also your MOI is full of liars.
GET IT?
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Also don’t be surprised if it was your own Minsistry of Interior that informed the US Embassy to deny your visa despite having a letter from them.
Get IT?
May:20:2008 - 11:02
I get it, but need to know the reason for denying her visa
she have every rights to visit her children
May:20:2008 - 11:02
guys, its really take us out of our main subject
but it’s ok i will go through it coz its link with 9/11
like Solomon said and its true
Solomon;
I didn’t say theres no right to protect citizen
and I didn’t mention American socity as responsible
I admet I said in thier collge in US but not society
and john mention that Saudi citizens used to be the best visa candidates and they came hone when the purpose of thier visit done
which mean we are not looking to come to US for working like many peope from another counties if in Middle East, Asia, Africa or Europ or south America.
our country just like yours, all wanted to come to for work
and we been through attacked by terrorism too
but extremly not true that Saudi society share responsibility for formating thier minds.
like we can’t say American society responsible of what some people did in America like:
Charles Carl Roberts and what he did in the Amish school
or Robert Hawkins in Omaha Nebraska mall
or what Timothy Mcveigh did or Terry Lynn Nichols or John williams, theres many more examples and you already know it.
but not me not you nor anyone else can say its our society responsibility for what they did.
and for the other ponits you hae said I agree with you
back to you John
maybe it seems crazy thinking to you, only if it was me who said that but that came from american people and they said it loudly through thier sites, media web page etc.
as example check these links :
h**p://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/070906insidejob.htm
h**p://www.wanttoknow.info/050908insidejob911
h**p://www.fight4truth.com/911truth.htm
h**p://miami.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/4529_comment.php
h**p://www.911sharethetruth.com
h**p://911review.org/Wiki/InsideJob.shtml
if you google it more you would get millions
and if 9/11 could let all think what happen to Saudi and made all that rules, thats still not fair we can’t judge whole country because of 15 or 100 or even thousen of them was bad people, or you should think again about japanese after Pearl Harbor, we all can keep tell eachothers many things.
but we all still need to seek for the trueth and need to be one team against the evils dosen’t matter were we from or what nation as long as we believe strongly in good (well-being)
and thaks for your kind to think Saudis are great people , so you are
sure you know that we have lots friends work and live here among of us in Riyadh and they are Americans and they think and feel just like you about us mabye more
May:20:2008 - 11:02
No particular reason except that the Saudi Government thinks it is protecting it citizens I suppose. Like the Saudi man is starting a new life and doesn’t need to be bothered with a mother who wants to her children. It is not just one case as this is the norm. I agree a mother has every right to visit her children but Prince Naif or whoever is in charge over at the Ministry of Interior doesn’t think so. There are so so so or too many cases to be exact.
Fortunately being a US citizen the U.S. embassy has power and because we have strong ties with Saudi government the U.S. embassy would help U.S. citizens set up such visits and so forth.
Unfortunately other countries like Indonesia or Singapore or a long list of other countries are ignored and denied.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Also as a Saudi be careful when speaking of your rights you might end up on jail for that.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Dr. Matrouk al-Faleh, an academic and human rights activist,was
arrested in the Saudi Arabian capital, Riyadh, on 19 May 2008. He is
held incommunicado at the General Investigation (al-Mabahith al-
`Amma) and is at risk of torture and other ill-treatment.
Members of the General Investigation unit of the Ministry of the
Interior (al-Mabahith al-`Amma) arrested Dr. Matrouk al-Faleh at the
university where he teaches. His family were informed late on 19 May
and have so far not been given access to visit or talk with him.
Dr. Matrouk al-Faleh had been acting as legal representative for the brothers Isaa and Dr Abdullah al-Hamid (For further information see previous UA AI Index: MDE 23/009/2008, 6 March 2008,and UA update,
UA 62/08, 11 March 2008, AI Index: MDE 23/10/2008). The brothers are serving prison sentences of six and four months’ respectively. They were found guilty of “incitement to protest”, charges that were brought against them after they supported and took part in a peaceful demonstration outside Buraida prison, north of Riyadh, by women relatives of political detainees held at the prison. The demonstrators called for their relatives to be charged and given fair trials, or else released.
The Saudi Arabian authorities have not disclosed publicly the reason for Dr. Matrouk al-Faleh’s arrest but it may be connected to the publication on 17 May of an article he wrote following his visit to al- Buraida prison in which he referred to Dr Abdullah and Issa al-Hamid, and criticised their harsh and overcrowded prison conditions.
Dr. Matrouk al-Faleh was previously arrested in March 2004 after
calling for political reform, and was sentenced to six years
imprisonment in May 2005 on charges that included “sowing dissent
and disobeying the ruler.” He was released after being granted a
royal pardon by King Abdullah on 8 August 2005. Since his release he
has not been permitted to travel abroad.
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Human rights activists and critics of the state are subject to gross
violations of their rights at the hands of the various security
forces under the control of the Ministry of Interior. They are often
held incommunicado without charge or trial, denied access to lawyers
and the courts to challenge the legality of their detention, and
tortured. Trials fall far short of international standards for fair
trial: defendants are generally denied legal counsel, and in many
cases they and their families are not informed of the progress of
legal proceedings against them. Court hearings are often held behind
closed doors.
The Saudi Arabian authorities regularly hold detainees
incommunicado, at which time they are at risk of being tortured and
otherwise ill-treated. Critics of the state are routinely detained
indefinitely without charge or trial. Defendants are often denied
the right to formal representation by a lawyer and in many cases
they and their families are not informed of the progress of legal
proceedings against them. Due to the high level of secrecy of the
Saudi Arabian justice system, trials are invariably held behind
closed doors. In the rare instances when individuals are charged and
brought to trial, the proceedings invariably fail to meet the most
elementary standards of fairness.
RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send appeals to arrive as quickly as
possible, in Arabic or English or your own language:
- expressing concern that Dr. Matrouk al-Faleh is being held
incommunicado, where he is at risk of torture or other ill-treatment;
- seeking assurances from the authorities that he is protected from
torture and other ill-treatment;
- calling for him to be given regular access to his family, lawyers
of his choice and any medical attention he may require;
- calling for his immediate and unconditional release if he is being
held solely for his human rights work.
APPEALS TO:
His Majesty King Abdullah Bin `Abdul `Aziz Al-Saud
The Custodian of the two Holy Mosques
Office of His Majesty The King
Royal Court
Riyadh
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Salutation: Your Majesty
His Royal Highness Prince Naif bin `Abdul `Aziz Al-Saud
Minister of the Interior
Ministry of the Interior
P.O. Box 2933
Airport Road
Riyadh 11134
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Fax: +966 1 403 1185
+966 1 403 3614
Salutation: Your Royal Highness
His Royal Highness Prince Saud al-Faisal bin `Abdul `Aziz Al-Saud
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Nasseriya Street
Riyadh 11124
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Fax: +966 1 403 0645
Salutation: Your Royal Highness
COPIES TO:
Mr Turki bin Khaled Al-Sudairy
The President
The Human Rights Commission
PO Box 58889, Riyadh 11515
King Fahad Road
Building No.373
Riyadh
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Fax: +966 1 4612061
and to diplomatic representatives of Saudi Arabia accredited to your
country.
PLEASE SEND APPEALS IMMEDIATELY. Check with the International
Secretariat, or your section office, if sending appeals after 1 July
2008
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE23/023/2008/en/4398884d-
26a2-11dd-b995-f7269e5ea55f/mde230232008eng.html
__._,_.___
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif,
I think it is unfortunate that you were not able to get your Visa to visit a sick relative. However, you need to put this in prospective. 911 does matter in a big way in the US. It was the biggest terrorist act in history and it was executed by mostly Saudi’s and by an organization lead by a Saudi. The issues do not stop there either. Saudi is also exporting Jihadists to many places and was and to a smaller degree a source for financing terrorist organization. I know the Saudi government is doing a lot to fix these problems, but we took our eyes of the ball for so long that these extremists gave the country a black eye. It is something we have to live with until we fix the situation and build back the reputation of the country.
Additionally, a country like the US who would like to screen visa applicants cannot have confidence on the goverment and financial organizations that produce the documents required for the screening. The systems are corrupt enough where a person with a decent wasta can produce any document needed. This makes it hard to make consistent decision and may result in people being rejected unjustifiably.
I also want you to consider the severity of some of these attacks with an example. There are recent calls in Bahrain to stop all Visa’s for Bengali workers, because of 2 murders committed by workers from that country. In comparison, 911 produced about 3000 dead and destroyed important country symbols. Any nation will be very concerned after such attack and may install even more restrictions than the US does on citizens of foreign countries.
Finally, Sparky brought up a good point. Saudi Arabia is one of the most restrictive countries in the world. We have issues even issuing visa’s for spouses of Saudi citizens. I am not talking just in the cases of conflicts, I am referring to cases where the married couple have to apply for acceptance and wait years for acceptance. The cases that Sparky mentioned where mothers are not allowed Visas to see their children are very common. These cases are much more concerning from a humanitarian prospective than your case. Imagine a child not seeing his/her mother for life.
I know acquiring US visas is not the best process. However, I think the US is acting within reason given the circumstances and the difficulty of collecting information on applicants. It protects American citizens and at the same time may even save Saudi from a major embarrassment of having another attack occur.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Yusif: As you discovered–and worked around–too many links will prevent a comment from posting.
I do not blame Saudi Arabia (it’s government, institutions, etc.) for causing 9/11. I do claim that the government and institutions were intellectually lazy, never thinking of the consequences of what it was teaching in its schools, never thinking of the consequences of the tendency toward takfir it was permitting in its mosques. The results of that laziness and inattention were 9/11 and the Al-Qaeda war in the KSA since 2003 (arguably, since the 1990s).
On the 9/11 ‘Truthers’: just because a lot of people think something does not make it a fact. There have been debunkings of the various conspiracy theories (a good one is this, from Popular Science magazine). But as I’m sure you’re aware, some people simply want to believe something and cannot be convinced otherwise. For me, I’ve given up trying to argue the point. For the conspiracists, it’s become a matter of faith and faith is not amenable to rational argument.
Your citing Roberts and the Amish school is not exactly pertinent to the discussion. He’s deemed to have been mentally ill, not an allegation leveled against Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and his Saudi recruits. Some people are just mentally ill and the horrors they commit (as the Syrian who decapitated his nephew in a Saudi market a few months ago) are seen as the result of that illness.
Timothy McVeigh is a bit more germane. His motivation was political, not exactly religious, but as a result of his act the entire ‘militia’ movement in the US came in for both enhanced scrutiny and legal prosecution. It pretty much spelled the end of the White supremacists as a potent force in the US.
In fact, it’s pretty much the same as has happened with ‘AQ in the Arabian Peninsula’ in the Kingdom. Investigations and prosecution continue in both countries.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Can a US citizen obtain a Saudi visa for the same purpose as a Saudi getting US visa? As far as I know, NO. Can anyone visit anyplace in Saudi Arabia with a visit visa just as a Saudi can in the US? Last year the US issued 30,000 visas to the Saudis. US is extremely generous to the Saudis for offering services to them that are out of reach for the US citizens in Saudi. People and govt of the US are extremely tolerant to the people living in their country compared to ANY arab countries in the region. ALL the Arab countries in that part of region, particularly GCC countries, treat expatcts from South Asia less than human even though they are building their countries. If the US applies the same rules and treatments that the GCC nations are providing to the Asian workers, people of GCC nations would have been living in the year 500 (yes five hundred) today. Not to mention they would have received 0 visas.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Anyone know if US citizens can obtain a 5-year multiple-entry visa to Saudi Arabia yet? Last I heard was that some got issued and then the visa got changed to a 6-month multiple-entry visa once the passport holder entered Saudi Arabia for the first time after the visa was issued.
May:20:2008 - 11:02
Sorry, don’t have anything on this. My non-diplomatic visas for the KSA have always been 6-month, multiple-entry.