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	<title>Comments on: Reaction to Pardon of &#8216;Qatif Girl&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/</link>
	<description>Informed comment and commentary about Saudi Arabia, reform, and its relations with the US</description>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9264</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9264</guid>
		<description>She was pardoned for her part in the crime/sin of &lt;em&gt;Khulwa&lt;/em&gt;, committed before she was raped. Even though she admitted to this crime, the impression was that the penalty far exceeded moral norms, particularly in view of the fact that she was later raped. Most people--including Saudis--believed that the rape was more than enough punishment and &#039;taught her her lesson&#039;.

That &lt;em&gt;khulwa&lt;/em&gt; is not a crime in most countries doesn&#039;t alter the fact that it is a crime, and well known to be a crime, in the KSA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She was pardoned for her part in the crime/sin of <em>Khulwa</em>, committed before she was raped. Even though she admitted to this crime, the impression was that the penalty far exceeded moral norms, particularly in view of the fact that she was later raped. Most people&#8211;including Saudis&#8211;believed that the rape was more than enough punishment and &#8216;taught her her lesson&#8217;.</p>
<p>That <em>khulwa</em> is not a crime in most countries doesn&#8217;t alter the fact that it is a crime, and well known to be a crime, in the KSA.</p>
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		<title>By: mghuloum</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9263</link>
		<dc:creator>mghuloum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9263</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it ironic, that a victim is being &#039;pardoned&#039;? Pardoned for...doing what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it ironic, that a victim is being &#8216;pardoned&#8217;? Pardoned for&#8230;doing what?</p>
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		<title>By: olivetheoil</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9259</link>
		<dc:creator>olivetheoil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9259</guid>
		<description>Mary Ann Shubaily:
I am not American by birth or citizenship, I only am here temporarily.  I would strongly resist having the &quot;American way&quot; imposed on me:)

I am merely pointing out what effect the Qatif Girl judgment made in a lot of career decisions, that globalization of economy has opened up a lot more options in many countries that were unthinkable even a couple of decades ago. So, with many countries competing for talent, professionals like me are taking into account women&#039;s rights and liberties in making our choice.

I am not asking for the right to wear a bikini in public. In my home town I would face accusations of public indecency (the first time I wore jeans my mother accused me of destroying the family reputation).  All that I want is equitable treatment in the eyes of the law. If that is not available in one country, then we will opt to work in countries that do. Equality in treatment is not a fund raising catchword any more. I believe that it is rapidly becoming a recruiting asset.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary Ann Shubaily:<br />
I am not American by birth or citizenship, I only am here temporarily.  I would strongly resist having the &#8220;American way&#8221; imposed on me:)</p>
<p>I am merely pointing out what effect the Qatif Girl judgment made in a lot of career decisions, that globalization of economy has opened up a lot more options in many countries that were unthinkable even a couple of decades ago. So, with many countries competing for talent, professionals like me are taking into account women&#8217;s rights and liberties in making our choice.</p>
<p>I am not asking for the right to wear a bikini in public. In my home town I would face accusations of public indecency (the first time I wore jeans my mother accused me of destroying the family reputation).  All that I want is equitable treatment in the eyes of the law. If that is not available in one country, then we will opt to work in countries that do. Equality in treatment is not a fund raising catchword any more. I believe that it is rapidly becoming a recruiting asset.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Ann Shubaily</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9254</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Ann Shubaily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9254</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m American and have been in Saudi since 1980 as a teacher and wife of a Saudi businessman. I can tell you that when the Americans moved out several years ago, they were quickly replaced by English, Chinese, Irish, Germans, South Africans and others.  It&#039;s not like the Saudis HAVE to have Americans in order for their country to go high tech...(although some would like to think that.)      

Saudi Arabia has come a long way in the past 30 years...I&#039;ve seen it go from a sleepy country of one channel and no malls or even fresh milk to a country with satelite t.v., cell phones, internet, huge malls and businesses.  Change takes time....and they certainly understand their own people better than we do. 

Our way is not the only way and certainly not always the best way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m American and have been in Saudi since 1980 as a teacher and wife of a Saudi businessman. I can tell you that when the Americans moved out several years ago, they were quickly replaced by English, Chinese, Irish, Germans, South Africans and others.  It&#8217;s not like the Saudis HAVE to have Americans in order for their country to go high tech&#8230;(although some would like to think that.)      </p>
<p>Saudi Arabia has come a long way in the past 30 years&#8230;I&#8217;ve seen it go from a sleepy country of one channel and no malls or even fresh milk to a country with satelite t.v., cell phones, internet, huge malls and businesses.  Change takes time&#8230;.and they certainly understand their own people better than we do. </p>
<p>Our way is not the only way and certainly not always the best way.</p>
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		<title>By: olivetheoil</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9253</link>
		<dc:creator>olivetheoil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9253</guid>
		<description>This says her companion was pardoned as well.  

http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=510329

I hope so! It have a feeling that the &quot;anti-woman&quot; feeling would have spiked if the pardon was for her alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This says her companion was pardoned as well.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=510329" rel="nofollow">http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=510329</a></p>
<p>I hope so! It have a feeling that the &#8220;anti-woman&#8221; feeling would have spiked if the pardon was for her alone.</p>
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		<title>By: olivetheoil</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9249</link>
		<dc:creator>olivetheoil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9249</guid>
		<description>Sparky:
Yes, I have known women who have worked in SA and what you say is true about embassy jobs and other options. But again, these women were willing to make sacrifices to live in a land with limited choices. What I am saying is that most women I work with wouldn&#039;t buy that change. 

I don&#039;t think any relocation has to come at a career cost. I have relocated several times for personal reasons over the last few years but without sacrificing what I that worked very hard to build up. If anything, I managed move up the ladder in one case by negotiating a larger promotion that I was technically eligible for. 

I hear you about the so called &quot;beneath dignity&quot; jobs.  Personally, no job is beneath my dignity. As long as I am paid fairly and treated equitably, housecleaning is a perfectly viable option for me:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sparky:<br />
Yes, I have known women who have worked in SA and what you say is true about embassy jobs and other options. But again, these women were willing to make sacrifices to live in a land with limited choices. What I am saying is that most women I work with wouldn&#8217;t buy that change. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think any relocation has to come at a career cost. I have relocated several times for personal reasons over the last few years but without sacrificing what I that worked very hard to build up. If anything, I managed move up the ladder in one case by negotiating a larger promotion that I was technically eligible for. </p>
<p>I hear you about the so called &#8220;beneath dignity&#8221; jobs.  Personally, no job is beneath my dignity. As long as I am paid fairly and treated equitably, housecleaning is a perfectly viable option for me:)</p>
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		<title>By: Sparky</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9248</link>
		<dc:creator>Sparky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9248</guid>
		<description>I absolutely agree with you John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely agree with you John</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9247</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9247</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a pity that some Saudis don&#039;t want to see other Saudis &#039;taking work that is beneath their dignity&#039;, like house cleaning. In fact, Saudis spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about other people&#039;s business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a pity that some Saudis don&#8217;t want to see other Saudis &#8216;taking work that is beneath their dignity&#8217;, like house cleaning. In fact, Saudis spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about other people&#8217;s business.</p>
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		<title>By: Sparky</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9246</link>
		<dc:creator>Sparky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9246</guid>
		<description>Olivetheoil

I think that a lot of ladies who come from outside KSA who adore the life here. The reason they have left in the past was due to fear not lack of freedom. Trust me! I know people from both sides of the fence. Some of these ladies turn entrepreneur in their spare time. I do agree that a career woman may not want to relocate here but that would apply to relocating anywhere really. There are embassy jobs and a few companies that employ foreign women if they choose to work. Nowadays. there are even local companies employing foreign women as well as Saudi women. The problem is that these Saudi young ladies are very bright and bilingual and thus hard competition for wives of expatriates. 

As far as low end labor, I would have to say I have seen many bright and hard working Saudis who will gladly step in and take the salary of what a foreign worker takes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Olivetheoil</p>
<p>I think that a lot of ladies who come from outside KSA who adore the life here. The reason they have left in the past was due to fear not lack of freedom. Trust me! I know people from both sides of the fence. Some of these ladies turn entrepreneur in their spare time. I do agree that a career woman may not want to relocate here but that would apply to relocating anywhere really. There are embassy jobs and a few companies that employ foreign women if they choose to work. Nowadays. there are even local companies employing foreign women as well as Saudi women. The problem is that these Saudi young ladies are very bright and bilingual and thus hard competition for wives of expatriates. </p>
<p>As far as low end labor, I would have to say I have seen many bright and hard working Saudis who will gladly step in and take the salary of what a foreign worker takes.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-9243</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xrdarabia.org/2007/12/17/reaction-to-pardon-of-qatif-girl/#comment-9243</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t really say that we just have to accept bad laws in other countries. I said that there&#039;s not a whole lot we can do to change them, particularly as outsiders.

The Saudi system is in dire need of reform. Some Saudis realize that. Other Saudis want &#039;modernization without change&#039;, an utter impossibility. Outsiders can make their opinions known and support would-be reformers, but that&#039;s not just a matter of standing on the sidelines cheering. Too much &#039;support&#039; becomes counterproductive when it only provides ammunition to those fighting change. Calling someone &#039;running dog lackey of X&#039; still works to discredit people. In the KSA, it takes a form more like &#039;You don&#039;t respect/support Islam&#039;, a not-very-veiled threat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t really say that we just have to accept bad laws in other countries. I said that there&#8217;s not a whole lot we can do to change them, particularly as outsiders.</p>
<p>The Saudi system is in dire need of reform. Some Saudis realize that. Other Saudis want &#8216;modernization without change&#8217;, an utter impossibility. Outsiders can make their opinions known and support would-be reformers, but that&#8217;s not just a matter of standing on the sidelines cheering. Too much &#8216;support&#8217; becomes counterproductive when it only provides ammunition to those fighting change. Calling someone &#8216;running dog lackey of X&#8217; still works to discredit people. In the KSA, it takes a form more like &#8216;You don&#8217;t respect/support Islam&#8217;, a not-very-veiled threat.</p>
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